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Thread: The liberal Media vs Arizona

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    Default The liberal Media vs Arizona

    So, what is with the media spinning AZ 10th amendment right to pass a law that gives private businesses the ability to practice the 1st Amendment right after the federal government enslaved them to serve everyone? The AZ law doesnt target anyone, and doesnt exclude anyone from denying service to people they dont want to serve. Is it the liberal media that just hates anyone that wants to think for themselves and behave in any manor that doesnt harm any other individual physically in the name of the all powerfull federal government?
    Liberalism; such great ideas, they need to force you to follow them.

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    Default Re: The liberal Media vs Arizona

    As badly as you want to be able to go to a bar that only lets in heterosexual white Christian males, I'm sorry. It's not gonna happen for you. Get over it.
    "We're not going to give up on destroying the health care system for the American people."

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    Default Re: The liberal Media vs Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    As badly as you want to be able to go to a bar that only lets in heterosexual white Christian males, I'm sorry. It's not gonna happen for you. Get over it.
    Wow, you guys really only have a one track mind dont you? So you dont want to know who the bigots are in your comminity? You dont want to know who will take your money because they are forced to and go use their proceeds hold Klan rallies? You dont want to allow a black business owner to deny service to a neo-nazi who wants a cake baked in the shape of a noose?

    And think about what you said, is a bar that only allowed in males really a good bar to go to?

    Why is it ok for there to be women only gyms?

    And why is it ok for you to come on to my thread a racebait? This thread is about the constitution and the way liberal media spins the news about a low that gets a state back in line with the constitution.
    Liberalism; such great ideas, they need to force you to follow them.

    Socialism is for the people, not the socialist.

    Economic Left/Right: 7.38
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    politicalcompass.org

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    Default Re: The liberal Media vs Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by WILDJOKER5 View Post
    Wow, you guys really only have a one track mind dont you? So you dont want to know who the bigots are in your comminity? You dont want to know who will take your money because they are forced to and go use their proceeds hold Klan rallies? You dont want to allow a black business owner to deny service to a neo-nazi who wants a cake baked in the shape of a noose?

    And think about what you said, is a bar that only allowed in males really a good bar to go to?

    Why is it ok for there to be women only gyms?

    And why is it ok for you to come on to my thread a racebait? This thread is about the constitution and the way liberal media spins the news about a low that gets a state back in line with the constitution.
    Businesses ARE allowed to turn anyone away, as long as it is not on the basis of discrimination against a protected group. I say this realizing that gays are not a protected group, yet, but here are some examples:

    A business owner can turn a black person away for pretty much any reason, except for the reason that the person is black. They can turn any woman away for any reason, except for the reason that they are a woman. You get the point and I'm sure you knew this.

    Basically, in the case you are talking about, they are making homosexuals a protected group. So, if business owners want to turn them away, they'd better find another reason.

    I prefer it done this way, state by state. I know there are valid arguments against states making their own decisions on this, but if the state so chooses this path then so be it.

    The business owners are more than welcome to do one of two things. Move the business or get over it. I don't want to turn this into another religion thread, but since you mentioned religious freedom, I'll say this. I've never seen anything in the bible that talks about not letting gays purchase stuff from you. This is one of those instances where the religious freedom card is being misused. As a matter of fact, I'd say that the bible these people are using as a basis for their argument is the same bible that says your supposed to be kind to everyone.

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    Default Re: The liberal Media vs Arizona

    What they're also hiding behind is the First Amendment. Selling stuff to gays doesn't stop you from going to church on Sundays or praying five times a day while facing Mecca, or doing whatever other "practices" that your religion has.

    Also, the other thing to keep in mind is that no one has a "right" to own a business. Owning a business is just like driving a car - you have to get a license, and with that license comes a list of dos and don'ts. You don't follow that list, your license gets revoked. If someone doesn't want to follow that list, then they don't need to have a business.
    "We're not going to give up on destroying the health care system for the American people."

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    Default Re: The liberal Media vs Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    Businesses ARE allowed to turn anyone away, as long as it is not on the basis of discrimination against a protected group. I say this realizing that gays are not a protected group, yet, but here are some examples:

    A business owner can turn a black person away for pretty much any reason, except for the reason that the person is black. They can turn any woman away for any reason, except for the reason that they are a woman. You get the point and I'm sure you knew this.

    Basically, in the case you are talking about, they are making homosexuals a protected group. So, if business owners want to turn them away, they'd better find another reason.

    I prefer it done this way, state by state. I know there are valid arguments against states making their own decisions on this, but if the state so chooses this path then so be it.

    The business owners are more than welcome to do one of two things. Move the business or get over it. I don't want to turn this into another religion thread, but since you mentioned religious freedom, I'll say this. I've never seen anything in the bible that talks about not letting gays purchase stuff from you. This is one of those instances where the religious freedom card is being misused. As a matter of fact, I'd say that the bible these people are using as a basis for their argument is the same bible that says your supposed to be kind to everyone.
    It's more complex even than this, and it is truly unfortunate that religion is/has to be used because 99% of any media covering this takes this law completely out of context.

    Point 1: "homosexuality" in any tense, or any of its synonyms are found nowhere, anywhere, within the text of the law. The association of the word of any variety is completely by implication alone.

    Point 2: What are we "allowing" here? And who is doing the "allowing" What this law does do is give specifically a form of legal shield of those who find it inconsistent with their religious beliefs to, as a for instance serve pork to someone who doesn't practice the religion, and not be sued. This could mean they don't want to put two male figurines on top of a wedding cake.

    I think religion should be entirely a side item to this discussion. I believe very strongly that a raging racist should have the right not to provide their goods and services to every minority under the sun. Anyone familiar with the movie "Waiting" knows which party loses when people are forced to provide service to people they don't like. I think the Civil Rights movement went tragically too far when the mentality, that when you provide your services to the public, you must be forced to provide your services to every person that walks through your door when you belong to the "protected classes". Here's why, it protects the "bigots" in society from suffering the consequences of their ignorance by going out of business. I for one wish every racist business owner in society would declare with a neon sign that they refuse their services to black people so I can avoid helping them profit by purchasing their goods and services. Forcing the ignorant in society into the closet is no better an idea now than DADT was for homosexuals in the military then. If this law does not get passed, one maybe two people will get sued and lose before the other business owners find more insidious ways to use their ignorance against those who they are forced to do business with. These same people will be fully funded by the people they leverage their hatreds against. It won't open their eyes to "diversity", they'll be twice as resentful of their targets than they were before. I want these businesses to get negative ratings on Jane's lists everywhere and have the free market punish them fully if they are truly bigoted.
    "The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." ~ Thomas Jefferson

    It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood.
    James Madison

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    Default Re: The liberal Media vs Arizona

    There's another element to this story which I don't see discussed very often. Photography is an established artform. Baking is considered a culinary artform. Even decorating could be classified as an artform. Making a business out of these things doesn't take away the artistic component of them.

    So should a court be able to force an individual to produce an artistic work against their will?

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    Default Re: The liberal Media vs Arizona

    Gee, are some people really naive enough to believe that companies who practice discrimination will go out business by turning away potential customers?

    Woolworth's, McCrory's, Murphy's, Kresge's, Newberry's and just about every five and dime you can think of has existed for a whole century before they all croaked in the 1990's. And those businesses were doing just fine for the first 70 years, before blacks were able to eat at the lunch counter.

    Also, what if every business in a particular municipality discriminates? Then what? What are the people being discriminated against going to do?

    The mentality that businesses should be allowed to discriminate... I see it all over the internet, and every time... it's only white males who say it. This is the one group that has the easiest time saying it, because they're fully where that no matter where the go in this country, there will ALWAYS be someone willing to do business with them. Others don't have that luxury.
    "We're not going to give up on destroying the health care system for the American people."

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    Default Re: The liberal Media vs Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Gee, are some people really naive enough to believe that companies who practice discrimination will go out business by turning away potential customers?

    Woolworth's, McCrory's, Murphy's, Kresge's, Newberry's and just about every five and dime you can think of has existed for a whole century before they all croaked in the 1990's. And those businesses were doing just fine for the first 70 years, before blacks were able to eat at the lunch counter.

    Also, what if every business in a particular municipality discriminates? Then what? What are the people being discriminated against going to do?

    The mentality that businesses should be allowed to discriminate... I see it all over the internet, and every time... it's only white males who say it. This is the one group that has the easiest time saying it, because they're fully where that no matter where the go in this country, there will ALWAYS be someone willing to do business with them. Others don't have that luxury.
    The world has changed just a little bit since the 1860's, welcome to this century...
    "The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." ~ Thomas Jefferson

    It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood.
    James Madison

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    Default Re: The liberal Media vs Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Gee, are some people really naive enough to believe that companies who practice discrimination will go out business by turning away potential customers?

    Woolworth's, McCrory's, Murphy's, Kresge's, Newberry's and just about every five and dime you can think of has existed for a whole century before they all croaked in the 1990's. And those businesses were doing just fine for the first 70 years, before blacks were able to eat at the lunch counter.

    Also, what if every business in a particular municipality discriminates? Then what? What are the people being discriminated against going to do?

    The mentality that businesses should be allowed to discriminate... I see it all over the internet, and every time... it's only white males who say it. This is the one group that has the easiest time saying it, because they're fully where that no matter where the go in this country, there will ALWAYS be someone willing to do business with them. Others don't have that luxury.
    Unfortunately, people are always going to find a way to discriminate, especially when it comes to businesses. For instance, look at night clubs. Especially the high class ones. They discriminate on a daily basis. The people at the door decide who gets let in and who doesn't. It's based off of looks, sex, perception of wealth/class, age, etc. Should these clubs be required to let everyone in?

    Personally, I can't fathom why any business owner would turn any customer away.

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