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Thread: EPRs & Shirt Duty Changes

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    Default EPRs & Shirt Duty Changes

    Got this from a friend of a friend. Excerpt from the email...

    Snip
    I had a lunch meeting with our new Career Field Manager CMSgt Pfeffer today...she had some good insights.

    -New EPR form coming...no more PT block, larger area for Primary Duties, less room for other bullets mostly boxes to check (Army Style). As for how to reflect PT failures on the EPR...she only said member failed a standard...but wasnít sure how the AFI would want us to state that on the EPR.

    -she is working on the updated 2113...didn't go into too much details on that other than the once a shirt is selected they are plucked from the unit and placed in Shadow mode elsewhere OR in a shirt seat in a different unit

    -PT change...AC measurement staying, now if you fail the waist you get BMI, you pass that you are good...if not you fail.

    -she eluded to more EPR changes but didnít say much.

    Old news....looking to place a MSgt diamond in unit sizes 60-249 personnel...not enlisted but total bodies. If your number are greater it would be up to your unit to change one billet to an 8F position to drive that second Diamond spot, wont be automatic. One SMSgt diamond per base to help the Command Chief with Shirt moves/career development and CMSgt Diamonds at the MAJCOM level and above.

    She did speak to the change in the Family Care Program...the move to vMPF is a long way off since they cant seem to capture the POA portion...if we have to monitor that what does it really save us? But she did say the form will change and in turn the AFI will get updated.\

    Look for a soon-to-be Special Duty Ribbon to be given to Diamonds at the conclusion of the 1st tour...great more money on ribbons!

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    Default Re: EPRs & Shirt Duty Changes

    Our FSC has a lunch with the AFSPC/CCC next week. I intend on asking him about many of these...

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    Default Re: EPRs & Shirt Duty Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Ripcord View Post
    -PT change...AC measurement staying, now if you fail the waist you get BMI, you pass that you are good...if not you fail.
    Awesome!!!!...now we going to pile-on even more BS to an already BS process.

    Top 10 Reasons Why The BMI Is Bogus

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=106268439


    Research shows BMI often not an accurate indicator of body fat

    http://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2007/re...r-of-body-fat/


    Measuring Fat: Why BMI Is Inaccurate and Weight Scales Don’t Cut It

    http://www.draxe.com/measuring-fat-w...80%99t-cut-it/


    BMI Calculator Inaccurate, Says Oxford Professor

    http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/hea...ord-professor/
    Last edited by grimreaper; 07-27-2013 at 01:31 AM.

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    Default Re: EPRs & Shirt Duty Changes

    Same info I got... just wasn't sure how "releasable" it was.

    Before folks get too excited about the BMI:
    - You can't have failed any other portion
    -It is a commander's option, not a given and when they looked at the data, less than 5% of people who busted the AC would pass when BMIed. Can't find any numbers to do the math, but less than 5% of AC only fitness failures is a VERY small number, which shoots to shit the urban legend of all these super fit big boned folks who are busting their AC. There are over 300k people on AD, 70k AFRC Airmen, and roughly 100k ANG Airmen, so the PT program applies to just under 500k individuals. No program is going to be able to account for the body compositions of that many people, but again, we're not assessing Olympic athletes... out PT test evaluates basic fitness and there are going to be some people who fall outside what the test can measure, but the fact that less than 5% whatever the percentage of people fail by AC only is virtually statisticaly insignificant. The rest will still be assessed as obese by BMI and their failure will stand.

    The "DSD" ribbon is back on hold... Looks like the "good idea fairy" who came up with that idea will get shot in the face, just like the goofballs who came up with the "drone medal" and the "excellent PT patch"


    I've known Chief Pfeffer for a long time, she will do good things for y'all!
    "If a man is called to be a street sweeper, he should sweep the streets even as Michelangelo painted, or Beethoven composed music, or Shakespeare wrote poetry. He should sweep the street so well that all the hosts of heaven and earth will pause to say, here lived a great street sweeper who did his job well. "

    Dr Martin Luther King, Jr.


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    Default Re: EPRs & Shirt Duty Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by CrustySMSgt View Post
    Same info I got... just wasn't sure how "releasable" it was.

    Before folks get too excited about the BMI:
    - You can't have failed any other portion
    -It is a commander's option, not a given and when they looked at the data, less than 5% of people who busted the AC would pass when BMIed. Can't find any numbers to do the math, but less than 5% of AC only fitness failures is a VERY small number, which shoots to shit the urban legend of all these super fit big boned folks who are busting their AC. There are over 300k people on AD, 70k AFRC Airmen, and roughly 100k ANG Airmen, so the PT program applies to just under 500k individuals. No program is going to be able to account for the body compositions of that many people, but again, we're not assessing Olympic athletes... out PT test evaluates basic fitness and there are going to be some people who fall outside what the test can measure, but the fact that less than 5% whatever the percentage of people fail by AC only is virtually statisticaly insignificant. The rest will still be assessed as obese by BMI and their failure will stand.

    Considering that BMI in itself is extremely controversial and disputed by many experts, what does that solve? This does not fix the problem; it adds to it. In fact, I'm willing to bet this can work in reverse...I bet, scratch that, I know that there are plenty of people in the AF who can pass the PT test but are considered overweight and some possibly even obese by using BMI.

    So that begs the question...why should someone get a pass on the PT test if they pass the test, but are considered overweight or obese by BMI standards if a BMI alone is enough to fail people? Why not just use BMI then in the FIRST PLACE if it's so accurate???????

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    Default Re: EPRs & Shirt Duty Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by grimreaper View Post
    Considering that BMI in itself is extremely controversial and disputed by many experts, what does that solve? This does not fix the problem; it adds to it. In fact, I'm willing to bet this can work in reverse...I bet, scratch that, I know that there are plenty of people in the AF who can pass the PT test but are considered overweight and some possibly even obese by using BMI.

    So that begs the question...why should someone get a pass on the PT test if they pass the test, but are considered overweight or obese by BMI standards if a BMI is enough to fail people? Why not just use BMI then in the FIRST PLACE if it's so accurate???????
    Every signle element of the test can be seen as controvercial. How does 1.5 miles measure fitness better than 2 miles? Or the 100 meter dash. Or "when's the last time 99% of AIrmen had to run 1.5 miles to do their job?" What do push ups and situps have to do with our jobs? So your point is valid, but until they come up with a USB probe to stick up our backside and have a computer spit out a scientific fitness assessment, there has to be some method of measuring fitness. It won't fit everyone and it will never be perfect. If there was a perfect way, all the services would be doing it... OK, strike that, we all know that would require common sense, which is in short supply; I retract my statement lol
    "If a man is called to be a street sweeper, he should sweep the streets even as Michelangelo painted, or Beethoven composed music, or Shakespeare wrote poetry. He should sweep the street so well that all the hosts of heaven and earth will pause to say, here lived a great street sweeper who did his job well. "

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    Default Re: EPRs & Shirt Duty Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by GodFather View Post
    I think anything could help AC at this moment. Stats can be misleading.
    For one people who fail the AC when they do that first, probably blow off
    Remainder of test. If you get a 40 waist, why belt out 60 pushups or
    Push a 10min run, only to fail. Why not old school method, waist
    Minus neck for body fat. Again, these people are failing anyway, so if some
    Pass BMI, why not?
    Good points (you're on a roll! )
    I have seen folks just go through the motions if they bust one of the earlier elements. Might not be a huge deal on your first failure, as you've got nowhere to go but up. In subsequent failures, decisions to retain or give you the boot factor in the level of effort you put in, so by quitting you're only hurting yourself. But now if you've got a shot at passing BMI, you'd definitely be silly to quit.
    "If a man is called to be a street sweeper, he should sweep the streets even as Michelangelo painted, or Beethoven composed music, or Shakespeare wrote poetry. He should sweep the street so well that all the hosts of heaven and earth will pause to say, here lived a great street sweeper who did his job well. "

    Dr Martin Luther King, Jr.


    Chief Runner Amok of the Troll Cabal

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    Default Re: EPRs & Shirt Duty Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by CrustySMSgt View Post
    Every signle element of the test can be seen as controvercial. How does 1.5 miles measure fitness better than 2 miles? Or the 100 meter dash. Or "when's the last time 99% of AIrmen had to run 1.5 miles to do their job?" What do push ups and situps have to do with our jobs? So your point is valid, but until they come up with a USB probe to stick up our backside and have a computer spit out a scientific fitness assessment, there has to be some method of measuring fitness. It won't fit everyone and it will never be perfect. If there was a perfect way, all the services would be doing it... OK, strike that, we all know that would require common sense, which is in short supply; I retract my statement lol
    IMO, the correct answer would be to remove it completely. If a guy can run and do push ups and sit ups, who cares what his waist is?

    Just like leadership is hanging their hats on small percentages of people slipping through the cracks, this would be no different. Chances are, MOST people with 40+ inch waists are not going to be great runners, so most would basically self-eliminate just based off of that. Factor in push ups and sit ups as well and I'm willing to bet that the amount of people who are disgusting fat bodies making it through is "statistically insignificant".

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    Default Re: EPRs & Shirt Duty Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by grimreaper View Post
    IMO, the correct answer would be to remove it completely. If a guy can run and do push ups and sit ups, who cares what his waist is?

    Just like leadership is hanging their hats on small percentages of people slipping through the cracks, this would be no different. Chances are, MOST people with 40+ inch waists are not going to be great runners, so most would basically self-eliminate just based off of that. Factor in push ups and sit ups as well and I'm willing to bet that the amount of people who are disgusting fat bodies making it through is "statistically insignificant".
    I think appearance does need to be factored in, but the random nature of having a person measuring with a tape is WAY too inconsitant. We're basing decisions on people's careers on a system of measurement that, no matter how many times you read the instructions or get trained to do it, can vary by inches. At least the physical portions you can either do or you can't (yes, there is still the issue of subjectivity in reps not counting), but when one person passes you by inches and another one fails you by .5", there is a problem with the system. Now the tall folks will at least get a shot at the BMI option... probably won't help the short fat folk.
    "If a man is called to be a street sweeper, he should sweep the streets even as Michelangelo painted, or Beethoven composed music, or Shakespeare wrote poetry. He should sweep the street so well that all the hosts of heaven and earth will pause to say, here lived a great street sweeper who did his job well. "

    Dr Martin Luther King, Jr.


    Chief Runner Amok of the Troll Cabal

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    Default Re: EPRs & Shirt Duty Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by CrustySMSgt View Post
    I think appearance does need to be factored in, but the random nature of having a person measuring with a tape is WAY too inconsitant. We're basing decisions on people's careers on a system of measurement that, no matter how many times you read the instructions or get trained to do it, can vary by inches. At least the physical portions you can either do or you can't (yes, there is still the issue of subjectivity in reps not counting), but when one person passes you by inches and another one fails you by .5", there is a problem with the system. Now the tall folks will at least get a shot at the BMI option... probably won't help the short fat folk.
    I don't know if you saw my comment in another thread, but just last year, I had my test cancelled 3 days in a row due to winds. They still completed height, weight and tape, but could not do the run or p/u-s/u. For 3 days in a row I had to do height, weight and tape and each day the tape measurement was different, up to as much by 1 and 1/2 inches. Didn't really make a difference to me since I wasn't near 39, but that can make or break someone who struggles with their waist.

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