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Thread: Military service academies begin to follow transgender ban

  1. #51
    Senior Member meatbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLAPS View Post
    You didn't use the word "bigoted," and I didn't use the word "crazy." Not sure why you felt the need to bring it up. As for your so-called logic and reason, spare me. Why would I have interest in researching the reason why a boy is convincing himself he's a girl? There are plenty of subjects people are passionate about that others simply have no interest in researching.

    Let me ask you a question, how did you feel when a baker (artist in his own right) refused to make a gay-themed wedding cake? Did you "read a book" or otherwise try your hardest to understand his point of view, or did you jump on the "he's a Christian bigot and should lose his livelihood!" bandwagon? I'm guessing the later.
    Well, if you did take the time to learn something, then you would realize how ridiculous and ignorant your statements are, specifically about "...pretending to be another sex." Instead of learning about different conditions, you choose to remain uninformed and lazy. For example if you and your smart buddy, Gharkal, informed yourselves, then you would realize that there ARE cases of people who are born with different internal organs, atypical genitalia, and extreme hormone imbalances that make it challenging for them to discern their gender. Like you said before, science is real.

    FLAPS: "Trans make me uncomfortable and I think they are unstable because they pretend to be another gender. Dudes have schlongs."

    Me: "If you read up on atypical genitalia, hermaphroditism, hormone imbalance, the scientific research involved, etc, you would realize that they are not pretending, and there are many reasons for their mindset and choice."

    FLAPS: "Why would I want to learn about that? Nah, they are just pretending. I'm sure of it."


    And another irrelevant talking point about the baker! You must watch a lot of Fox News... Screw it, I'll entertain: The "Christian" who refused to make a wedding cake for a gay ceremony is a hypocrite. Not only that, but allowing such behavior can create a slippery slope of discrimination. Does that same baker refuse to bake cakes for people who eat shell fish (forbidden in the bible)? Does that baker refuse to sell baked goods to anyone who isn't Christian or shares his beliefs? Does the baker refuse to sell to people who have been divorced, have sex before marriage, or work on Sundays? Of course not. Also, what comes next? Refusing someone of a different religion medical care or groceries? Would you be supporting the baker if the roles were reversed, or what if a hotel manager refused to give you a room when you needed one because you were wearing your MAGA hat?

    All of these examples are relevant, logical, and destroy your weak argument, so I'm sure you'll just ignore it or not be able to realize the parallels.

  2. #52
    Senior Member meatbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogDog View Post
    The fact they make you feel uncomfortable shouldn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to serve. That same arguement was used for decades to keep Blacks segregated in the military and gays out of the military. I'm not saying you have to like transgender people or who have gender identity disorder just treat them like you'd want to be treated. Treat them like a human being.
    I've already made the argument about going through the same thing with blacks, women, and gays in the military, and how FLAP's stance is the same it was back then. He blatantly ignores it or doesn't see the similarities. He's just simply scared of what he doesn't understand. It makes him uncomfortable. We all know what happens when you let fear drive your decisions and opinions.

  3. #53
    Senior Member LogDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garhkal View Post
    Show me some genetic proof that someone can be "Born into the wrong body". TILL THEN i will always see it as a mental problem. AND IF someone with say OCD, or Bi-polar can't serve, due to their "mental problems", then WHY SHOULD someone who's got 'Gender identity DISORDER" be allowed to???

    And where do we draw the line? What of those people who feel they are "Trans-abled, and willingly CUT OFF LIMBS to make their physical body, equal their mental state"?? SHOULD they serve?
    I have not said the cause of gender identity disorder is caused by genetics. The cause(s) are debatable but the disorder is recognized by the American Psychiatric Association as being a real disorder. What is the cause of gender identity disorder? Here's what Harvard University says:
    Science tells us that gender is certainly not binary; it may not even be a linear spectrum. Like many other facets of identity, it can operate on a broad range of levels and operate outside of many definitions. And it also appears that gender may not be as static as we assume. At the forefront of this, transgender identity is complex – it’s unlikely we’ll ever be able to attribute it to one neat, contained set of causes, and there is still much to be learned. But we know now that several of those causes are biological. These individuals are not suffering a mental illness, or capriciously “choosing” a different identity. The transgender identity is multi-dimensional – but it deserves no less recognition or respect than any other facet of humankind.
    Harvard

  4. #54
    Senior Member LogDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meatbringer View Post
    I've already made the argument about going through the same thing with blacks, women, and gays in the military, and how FLAP's stance is the same it was back then. He blatantly ignores it or doesn't see the similarities. He's just simply scared of what he doesn't understand. It makes him uncomfortable. We all know what happens when you let fear drive your decisions and opinions.
    I understand that but with people with closed minds you have to continuously approach with different options for looking at their problem. FLAPS said "If I (knowingly) meet a transgender person, I will respectfully ask them why they want to pretend to be a sex they were not born as instead of just being gay/lesbian. Nothing will ever change my mind and convince me that you are born a male, but can change your sex to female." Instead of the way he would ask them he should wait until the person brings up the subject. Once the subject is breached he should ask open-ended questions like "I don't know enough about that, could you explain it to me?" Following up with "How did you come to realize your condition?" And he should continue with open-ended questions until he has enough information. Not only will he learn something but he might be able to realize the person may just be telling the truth.

    FLAPS' second sentence says "Nothing will change my mind..." immediately closes off any meaningful discussion on the subject. Sometimes it's better to be quiet, hear/listen, read, and try comprehending a subject on which he knows nothing about.

  5. #55
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garhkal View Post
    AND IF someone with say OCD, or Bi-polar can't serve, due to their "mental problems", then WHY SHOULD someone who's got 'Gender identity DISORDER" be allowed to???
    Neither bipolar disorder nor OCD are automatic cause for separation; previous manifestation is waiverable for military entry depending on severity and length since diagnosis. Basically, if the issue is under control they can serve.

    Quote Originally Posted by garhkal View Post
    And where do we draw the line? What of those people who feel they are "Trans-abled, and willingly CUT OFF LIMBS to make their physical body, equal their mental state"?? SHOULD they serve?
    I personally draw a line right around someone’s ability to accomplish the mission; nothing more nor less. DOD has made waivers for amputees or people in wheelchairs, people get hurt and take 12 months and longer to recover; from a readiness perspective this is not really different. I don’t think that is necessarily wrong as long as the numbers are relatively small and do not adversely impact readiness and the cost is negligible; we spend more on Viagra prescriptions than gender dysphoria. I have had 3 transgender personnel work for me in the last 3 years and I have had less problems / lost work etc. with their situation than I have due to alcohol related incidents. If I were asked what cost me more lost productivity ... we'd be talking about banning alcohol.

    The current policy reversal was against all the service chiefs’ and then-SECDEF’s recommendations; in having dealt with the issue firsthand it seems this was based on playing to base voters vice mission readiness / lethality.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

  6. #56
    Senior Member SeaLawyer's Avatar
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    As far as I'm concerned, there are two occupational fields with bonafide genital requirments that separate all this: A sperm donor and a wet nurse. If you can't fulfill either of these duties then where's the line in the sand?

  7. #57
    Senior Member LogDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaLawyer View Post
    As far as I'm concerned, there are two occupational fields with bonafide genital requirments that separate all this: A sperm donor and a wet nurse. If you can't fulfill either of these duties then where's the line in the sand?
    Hopefully, you're not looking to cross-train. LOL

  8. #58
    Senior Member SeaLawyer's Avatar
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    Good one LogDog!!!

    Miraculously, I can perform both!!!

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogDog View Post
    I have not said the cause of gender identity disorder is caused by genetics. The cause(s) are debatable but the disorder is recognized by the American Psychiatric Association as being a real disorder. What is the cause of gender identity disorder? Here's what Harvard University says:
    But why should we in effect coddle and celebrate one disorder (GID) but, when it comes to other disorders (skitoids, OCD, Bi-polar etc), they are seen as mental?
    THAT Is what i am not understanding. What makes those with GID so special, as to not just be seen as yet another nut-job, but someone we not only have to 'accept', but celebrate??

  10. #60
    Senior Member LogDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaLawyer View Post
    Good one LogDog!!!

    Miraculously, I can perform both!!!
    Don't tell FLAPS that or he claim you can only be one; a sperm donor or a wet nurse. Perhaps you're a monogender-asexual Sontaran, from Dr. Who, who can genetically altered himself to have mammary glands but even then you only reproduce by cloning so being able to produce sperm isn't necessary. But on the other hand, you'd look like "a talking baked potato."
    Last edited by LogDog; 04-26-2019 at 08:58 PM.

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