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Thread: Military service academies begin to follow transgender ban

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by meatbringer View Post
    Gender identity disorder
    There, you said it. Thank you. THIS is why they don't belong in the military. They need help, and the military isn't the place to get that help.

  2. #32
    Senior Member meatbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLAPS View Post
    There, you said it. Thank you. THIS is why they don't belong in the military. They need help, and the military isn't the place to get that help.
    Wow. Another great rebuttal. You're really good at this. Yes, there are some who may have gender identity disorder serving, and guess what? No issues. Let me remind you that I have three in my squadron and they are some of my top performers, requiring nothing more than some paperwork to be routed in order for them to serve openly with no issues. Just because someone is transexual, it does not mean that they are mentally incapable to serve in the military.

    If we are going that route, then I feel that people who believe in a magical sky man who controls everything are mentally unstable and need help. How can someone who believes in a magic sky man with zero proof of his existence be mentally fit to serve. Those people need help, and the military isn't the place to get it.

    Something tells me that this example will also be lost on you. The truth is that trans people just make you uncomfortable and you know nothing of the subject or simply can't grasp the science behind it. You've proven that, and your irrelevant ramblings about "the left" and "snowflakes" in this debate paint a pretty clear picture of you.

    You could also simply look up the dozens of other countries who allow trans to serve openly and see that there are no issues, just as we've had no real issues with them serving up until now.
    Last edited by meatbringer; 04-25-2019 at 02:38 AM.

  3. #33
    Senior Member LogDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    I don't agree with everyone's lifestyle choices (I don't drink, don't smoke / dip, not into porn, voluntarily wake up early and hit bed early, go to church every week etc.) nor do I expect them to agree with mine. I do believe in treating everyone with respect, whether or not their personal choices align with mine. It isn't my place to judge. However, too many people take a lack of overt condemnation as acceptance, endorsement or support for an issue.
    No offense, but you lead a more boring life than I do. LOL

    There are definite readiness issues / concerns with transgendered people in the military, most of which had been addressed, the biggest one was the amount of time to effectively migrate from 'untreated gender dysphoria' to sufficient 'gender reassignment' as there are varying degrees of what satisfies being treated (ie. not all transgendered people want to physically change their genitalia). The most drastic timeline -- full blown physical gender assignment is generally 34 months accounting for diagnosis, counseling, gender living / assumption, hormone treatment, and ultimately the series of operations that changes physical 'stuff' and then ultimate recovery. From a military perspective, the 34 months of non-deployability is not really workable. That said, in the case of someone who doesn't need full physical transformation, it could be 12 months, which that period of non-deployability is workable. There are transgendered people who can do high stress, insense jobs just fine, there are some that deal with a myriad of issues, by and large, I think I have known a similar percentage of people in the military who had some sort of mental health, social issue etc. that were or were not transgendered.
    I have no problem with people who identify as a gender other than what they were physically born with. What I do have a problem with is whether the military should be paying to have their gender reassignment. Maybe that should be done after they retire but not during their enlistment. As you pointed out, they won't be deployable for a period of time which means someone else has to take their place. If the gender reassignment take longer than 12 months then they should be facing discharge just like others who can't deploy for other reasons. [/quote]

    Bottom line for me: From a work perspective, if someone can do their job, I really don't care about their personal life, but their personal decisions may hinder whether or not I try to socialize with them.
    The military needs men and women, regardless of which gender they self-identify with, and if they meet the standards to enlist then let them enlist. As for socializing with anyone, that's still an individual choice. There were people I refused to socialize with unless it was at a formal event and even then I'd try to avoid them. If you don't want socialize with someone then that's your choice.

    FWIW, for some time I have thought if someone had enough issues going on inside them that they felt it necessary to assume the opposite gender, the last thing they need is me giving them additional woes.
    People have a lot of issues they're dealing with that supervisors and commanders know nothing about. It's not up to the supervisor or commander to solve those problems but to provide them information/advice on how and where to get the help they need to cope with their problems.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogDog View Post
    I have no problem with people who identify as a gender other than what they were physically born with. What I do have a problem with is whether the military should be paying to have their gender reassignment. Maybe that should be done after they retire but not during their enlistment. As you pointed out, they won't be deployable for a period of time which means someone else has to take their place. If the gender reassignment take longer than 12 months then they should be facing discharge just like others who can't deploy for other reasons.
    There are reasons to have plastic surgeons practice hustle of surgery, in part it is a QOL issue, in part it is maintenance of a skill set (genital reconstruction) that doesn’t get practice a lot out of dire situations. Around 04 or 05 there was an Army soldier who lost his genitals to an IED; DoD contracted a surgeon who does gender reassignment to rebuild what was lost; same reason things like breast enlargements (most reductions are done to deal with back pain), penis enlargement and liposuction are done at a few places.

    As far as non deployability, the USN and USMC cycle personnel through sea/FMF (deplorable) and shore (non-deplorable) assignments. Things like this are usually done on, or require reassignment to an abbreviated shore duty job which resets their rotation timing (done when females get pregnant, male has a hernia etc.).

    Quote Originally Posted by LogDog View Post
    People have a lot of issues they're dealing with that supervisors and commanders know nothing about. It's not up to the supervisor or commander to solve those problems but to provide them information/advice on how and where to get the help they need to cope with their problems.
    Pretty much. By and large my job is not fixing things, providing people the available / authorized resources to solve their issues, evaluating fitness for promotion, rewarding superior performance and holding them accountable if they stray from standards is more my thing.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by meatbringer View Post
    The truth is that trans people just make you uncomfortable .
    You're right, they make me uncomfortable. I don't get it...being born a male but wanting to be recognized as a female. Sorry you don't like my opinion. I don't feel the need to "read a book" to change that opinion. It's not a "bigoted" opinion either, as I don't hate transgender people.

  6. #36
    Senior Member meatbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLAPS View Post
    You're right, they make me uncomfortable. I don't get it...being born a male but wanting to be recognized as a female. Sorry you don't like my opinion. I don't feel the need to "read a book" to change that opinion. It's not a "bigoted" opinion either, as I don't hate transgender people.
    First of all, I never used accused you or even used the word "bigoted," so I'm unsure why you felt the need to bring that up. Yeah, I know they obviously make you uncomfortable, but becoming informed and "reading a book" on the subject would help you understand why, just because someone is transgender, it doesn't mean that they are crazy or unfit to serve. But we know you refuse to, because the subject makes you uncomfortable and it's easier just to spout misinformed nonsense. Your opinion doesn't bother me, but your refusal to become informed on the subject, listen to reason or logic, and the way you continually spout off "the left" and "snowflake" nonsense is pretty bothersome and sad.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by meatbringer View Post
    First of all, I never used accused you or even used the word "bigoted," so I'm unsure why you felt the need to bring that up. Yeah, I know they obviously make you uncomfortable, but becoming informed and "reading a book" on the subject would help you understand why, just because someone is transgender, it doesn't mean that they are crazy or unfit to serve. But we know you refuse to, because the subject makes you uncomfortable and it's easier just to spout misinformed nonsense. Your opinion doesn't bother me, but your refusal to become informed on the subject, listen to reason or logic, and the way you continually spout off "the left" and "snowflake" nonsense is pretty bothersome and sad.
    You didn't use the word "bigoted," and I didn't use the word "crazy." Not sure why you felt the need to bring it up. As for your so-called logic and reason, spare me. Why would I have interest in researching the reason why a boy is convincing himself he's a girl? There are plenty of subjects people are passionate about that others simply have no interest in researching.

    Let me ask you a question, how did you feel when a baker (artist in his own right) refused to make a gay-themed wedding cake? Did you "read a book" or otherwise try your hardest to understand his point of view, or did you jump on the "he's a Christian bigot and should lose his livelihood!" bandwagon? I'm guessing the later.

  8. #38
    Senior Member LogDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    There are reasons to have plastic surgeons practice hustle of surgery, in part it is a QOL issue, in part it is maintenance of a skill set (genital reconstruction) that doesn’t get practice a lot out of dire situations. Around 04 or 05 there was an Army soldier who lost his genitals to an IED; DoD contracted a surgeon who does gender reassignment to rebuild what was lost; same reason things like breast enlargements (most reductions are done to deal with back pain), penis enlargement and liposuction are done at a few places.
    I don't argue plastic surgeons need cases to maintain/expand their skills and fi there aren't enough cases for them to use their skills they can enter into an arrangement with local hospitals to perform various types of surgeries where the hospital has no or limited surgical specialties. In the late 80s, at Cannon AFB, we had two surgeons who were underutilized and the hospital commander established a formal agreement with the local hospital allowing the two surgeons to perform surgeries there to maintain their skills. It worked out well with both hospitals and the patients they served benefiting.

    My contention with allowing gender reassignment surgery is whether the person is enlisting just to get the surgery and not have to pay for it them-self. Unless the surgery was vital to readiness then the surgery should be considered elective surgery. If the base has the capacity to do the surgery and the recovery time wouldn't affect the individual's ability to deploy beyond their service's requirements then I wouldn't be against that because, as you pointed out, the plastic surgeons need cases like this to maintain their skills.

    As far as non deployability, the USN and USMC cycle personnel through sea/FMF (deplorable) and shore (non-deplorable) assignments. Things like this are usually done on, or require reassignment to an abbreviated shore duty job which resets their rotation timing (done when females get pregnant, male has a hernia etc.).
    That's fine, but if the service has a limit on how long someone can be non-deployable and they exceed that limit then their non-deployable status becomes a problem for their unit and fellow personnel and they should be considered for discharge.


    Pretty much. By and large my job is not fixing things, providing people the available / authorized resources to solve their issues, evaluating fitness for promotion, rewarding superior performance and holding them accountable if they stray from standards is more my thing.
    For most people, that's the best we can do. My people's personal problems weren't my personal problems but if they in any way affected their work, the flight, or group then I needed to intervene with them and get them the help they needed.

  9. #39
    Senior Member LogDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLAPS View Post
    You're right, they make me uncomfortable. I don't get it...being born a male but wanting to be recognized as a female. Sorry you don't like my opinion. I don't feel the need to "read a book" to change that opinion. It's not a "bigoted" opinion either, as I don't hate transgender people.
    The fact they make you feel uncomfortable shouldn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to serve. That same arguement was used for decades to keep Blacks segregated in the military and gays out of the military. I'm not saying you have to like transgender people or who have gender identity disorder just treat them like you'd want to be treated. Treat them like a human being.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogDog View Post
    The fact they make you feel uncomfortable shouldn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to serve. That same arguement was used for decades to keep Blacks segregated in the military and gays out of the military. I'm not saying you have to like transgender people or who have gender identity disorder just treat them like you'd want to be treated. Treat them like a human being.
    I respect your opinion. If I (knowingly) meet a transgender person, I will respectfully ask them why they want to pretend to be a sex they were not born as instead of just being gay/lesbian. Nothing will ever change my mind and convince me that you are born a male, but can change your sex to female. Just accept what you were born as and live with it. It doesn't mean you have to act a certain way or dress a certain way. Just "man up" (so to speak) and tell people, "yes, I am a man but I prefer to wear dresses and have sexual relations with other men." Ok, got it. But telling me, "I was born as a male but last month I decided that I am no longer a male" just isn't going to cut it. You don't get to make that choice...not on this planet.

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