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  1. #11
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainmaker View Post
    Of course, anyone who gathers to show pride in rich, white culture and history must be an advocate of genocide.

    In case you haven't noticed it's not "white nationalists" who are rioting, destroying public and private property, blocking public freeways, and demand colleges be turned into Marxist indoctrination centers, we're they erase western civilization, culture and history from the curriculum.
    No, not "anyone who gathers to show pride in rich, white culture and history must be an advocate of genocide". But the ones saying that Jews, or blacks or [pick a group] should be exterminated ... yeah ... they are advocates of genocide. Which seemed to be a tenant of at least one group in Charlottesville this last weekend.

    You are correct, there are a lot of folks from BLM, AntiFA etc. who are ", destroying public and private property, blocking public freeways" ... don't like them either ...
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    The SFN's fully expected a fight.
    Possibly so. I freely admit that I've not read any direct articles or watched any videos. Ever since I deleted my facebook accounts a month ago, most of my knowledge of what's going on in the world comes from talking with other people in person, or one of those rare opportunities I have to turn on the TV (thanks to ten years of facebook, I forgot how to get my own news on the internet without having it delivered to me in a newsfeed).

    I just don't think it is that black and white (pun?) or binary. I don't like AntiFa's tactics, doesn't mean I am or support fascists.

    i.e.: I have pets, I love my pets. I love animals in general ... some with a side of potatoes and gravy. I don't support PETA. I don't like their tactics or methodology.
    Since you just said you eat meat, this is false equivalency. Yes, you don't agree with PETA's tactics. But you also don't agree with their stance, either.

    A term I have heard used is "the racist next door"; which isn't isolated to whites. I think you are correct on strategic distancing ... and would also say that is not isolated to whites or conservatives either.
    Oh, I think it is. And, trust me, this isn't me getting on some "black people can't be racist" thing (I've never stated nor implied that I believe this to be the case, although I've had this belief falsely attributed to me over the years on MTF). The reason why I'm saying it is limited to whites or conservatives is because - with very rare exceptions - a racist minority has very little incentive to distance himself from a hate group if he or she really wanted to be a part of one, or publicly state that he or she shares the beliefs of one. Afterall, if a Black Hebrew Israelite goes on about "Edomites" and "Sons of Esau," etc, etc; what's going to happen to him? Are the police going to harass him if they see him walking in the "wrong" neighborhood, or conveniently "fear for their lives?" Basically... what is going to happen to him that hasn't already been happening to him his whole life?

    Okay, so that's the "white" part. As far as the "conservative" part... maybe. It looks like many liberals - both black and white - are strategically distancing themselves from BLM.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

  3. #13
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Possibly so. I freely admit that I've not read any direct articles or watched any videos. Ever since I deleted my facebook accounts a month ago, most of my knowledge of what's going on in the world comes from talking with other people in person, or one of those rare opportunities I have to turn on the TV (thanks to ten years of facebook, I forgot how to get my own news on the internet without having it delivered to me in a newsfeed).
    I am thinking so based on some published emails that were sent coordinating the SFN's protest. They were fully expecting a confrontation ... that seems to have a/the goal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Since you just said you eat meat, this is false equivalency. Yes, you don't agree with PETA's tactics. But you also don't agree with their stance, either.
    If you look at it black and white ... you are right. I agree with many of PETA's positions ... some I don't ... that doesn't mean I run around abusing animals.

    I agree with some of the stances of BLM, but I don't believe in reparations for slavery ...

    Does it have to be all or nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Oh, I think it is. And, trust me, this isn't me getting on some "black people can't be racist" thing (I've never stated nor implied that I believe this to be the case, although I've had this belief falsely attributed to me over the years on MTF). The reason why I'm saying it is limited to whites or conservatives is because - with very rare exceptions - a racist minority has very little incentive to distance himself from a hate group if he or she really wanted to be a part of one, or publicly state that he or she shares the beliefs of one. Afterall, if a Black Hebrew Israelite goes on about "Edomites" and "Sons of Esau," etc, etc; what's going to happen to him? Are the police going to harass him if they see him walking in the "wrong" neighborhood, or conveniently "fear for their lives?" Basically... what is going to happen to him that hasn't already been happening to him his whole life?

    Okay, so that's the "white" part. As far as the "conservative" part... maybe. It looks like many liberals - both black and white - are strategically distancing themselves from BLM.
    I don't really follow you. I can tell you first hand that the "next door racist" exists with blacks and whites.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    I don't really follow you. I can tell you first hand that the "next door racist" exists with blacks and whites.
    I'm curious to know about these black "next door racists." Again, I see why a white racist would want to keep their racism secret. You pretty much voiced your opinion on "SFN's," and if the majority of the US white population sees them the same; then a white racist knows fully well he'd make himself a pariah if he publicly expressed his views. A black person worried about becoming that pariah? It's no secret that black people are already on the bottom of the social ladder in the US. One could argue that it's really illegal immigrants who are, and even THAT'S debatable.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

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    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    I'm curious to know about these black "next door racists." Again, I see why a white racist would want to keep their racism secret. You pretty much voiced your opinion on "SFN's," and if the majority of the US white population sees them the same; then a white racist knows fully well he'd make himself a pariah if he publicly expressed his views. A black person worried about becoming that pariah? It's no secret that black people are already on the bottom of the social ladder in the US. One could argue that it's really illegal immigrants who are, and even THAT'S debatable.
    Of the ones I have known of, it had to do with their ability to get, keep / maintain jobs etc. (civilian and military). In many places being a racist ... whether white or black paints you undesirable to the employer, it harms the work environment and opens them up to too many issues / repercussions.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Right, but if you are undesirable to begin with... then it really doesn't matter. That's the point I'm trying to make.

    Now, of course... someone in my position would have a lot to lose by expressing beliefs held by the Black Hebrew Israelites or other such groups. But I will also argue that most black people in such groups don't WANT to be in my position to begin with. It's no secret how they feel about the government; and, to them, working in the private sector is no better, because of the specific race of people who would be profiting from their labor.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

  7. #17
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Now, of course... someone in my position would have a lot to lose by expressing beliefs held by the Black Hebrew Israelites or other such groups. But I will also argue that most black people in such groups don't WANT to be in my position to begin with. It's no secret how they feel about the government; and, to them, working in the private sector is no better, because of the specific race of people who would be profiting from their labor.
    You would be surprised. You know I work in the Intel Community. I have been the SSO at three separate commands which means I see peoples Personal Security Questionnaires. I have seen more people that I would think (had it not been my job) who listed membership in organizations that are recognized hate groups (white ... and black). They don't espouse it vocally at work; but it was there on their forms.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    You would be surprised. You know I work in the Intel Community. I have been the SSO at three separate commands which means I see peoples Personal Security Questionnaires. I have seen more people that I would think (had it not been my job) who listed membership in organizations that are recognized hate groups (white ... and black). They don't espouse it vocally at work; but it was there on their forms.
    The specific question on the clearance questionnaire is this:

    Have you EVER been a member of an organization that advocates or practices commission of acts of force
    or violence to discourage others from exercising their rights under the U.S. Constitution or any state of the
    United States with the specific intent to further such action?
    Not every hate group has this as its intent, and if one belongs to a group that does not have this as its intent, then it's not going to be listed on the SF-86.

    If I recall correctly, there were some reports of New Black Panther Party members (not to be confused with the original Black Panther Party, started by Huey Newton) intimidating voters at the polls back in 2012. Outside of that, I know of no outside of that, I know of no other black hate group that would be required to be listed on the SF 86.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

  9. #19
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    You would be surprised. You know I work in the Intel Community. I have been the SSO at three separate commands which means I see peoples Personal Security Questionnaires. I have seen more people that I would think (had it not been my job) who listed membership in organizations that are recognized hate groups (white ... and black). They don't espouse it vocally at work; but it was there on their forms.
    The specific question on the clearance questionnaire is this:

    Have you EVER been a member of an organization that advocates or practices commission of acts of force
    or violence to discourage others from exercising their rights under the U.S. Constitution or any state of the
    United States with the specific intent to further such action?
    Not every hate group has this as its intent, and if one belongs to a group that does not have this as its intent, then it's not going to be listed on the SF-86.

    If I recall correctly, there were some reports of New Black Panther Party members (not to be confused with the original Black Panther Party, started by Huey Newton) intimidating voters at the polls back in 2012. Outside of that, I know of no outside of that, I know of no other black hate group that would be required to be listed on the SF 86.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

  10. #20
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    The specific question on the clearance questionnaire is this:



    Not every hate group has this as its intent, and if one belongs to a group that does not have this as its intent, then it's not going to be listed on the SF-86.

    If I recall correctly, there were some reports of New Black Panther Party members (not to be confused with the original Black Panther Party, started by Huey Newton) intimidating voters at the polls back in 2012. Outside of that, I know of no outside of that, I know of no other black hate group that would be required to be listed on the SF 86.
    "required to be listed" ... No. The form does not list organizations and say "check all that apply", people list what they have thought applies; that said, I have seen listed:

    Black Riders Liberation Party
    New Black Panthers
    Nation of Islam
    War on the Horizon

    All are listed as hate groups by the SLPC (Black Separatist).

    I have also seen:

    American Eagle Party
    Right Wing Resistance
    South Africa Project
    and a few more that I can't recall the name of right away.

    All lists as hate groups by the SLPC (White Separatist).

    What I have never seen is anything with Ku Klux Klan in the name ... but I am sure they are out there.

    The tricky thing is, membership in or supporting (financial etc.) these groups doesn't necessarily disqualify a civilian employee from government service.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

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