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Thread: Retired 4-star demoted after sexual assault investigation

  1. #21
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainmaker View Post
    Unless there's more to the story, then the punishment seems pretty severe.

    Going after the man years after the fact, publicly dragging his name through the mud and then busting him down in retirement, for what appears (on the surface anyway) to just be a consensual relationship.......sounds like a witch hunt.

    Of course he's an officer, so the Sandsjames' of the world wouldn't be satisfied, unless he was bankrupted & sentenced to hard labor at Leavenworth, for the rest of his life.
    The relationship was consensual ... but if coerced that lends a bit more to me thinking the reduction was appropriate. Combine that with the (supposed) "special trust and confidence" we place in leaders, if he as a flag officer was coercing a (at the time) Major or Lieutenant Colonel into sexual relations ... it would be more than appropriate to reduce him.

    I imagine there is sufficient evidence that if the statue of limitations had not expired, he would have face judicial punishment ... otherwise the SECAF would be too open for him to appeal to the Board of Corrections of Military Records and be reinstated.
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    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    The relationship was consensual ... but if coerced that lends a bit more to me thinking the reduction was appropriate. Combine that with the (supposed) "special trust and confidence" we place in leaders, if he as a flag officer was coercing a (at the time) Major or Lieutenant Colonel into sexual relations ... it would be more than appropriate to reduce him.
    It's hard to believe that in the climate of the last decade, a 40 year old woman was "coerced" multiple times ,over a period of years and assignments, into knocking boots with a guy who looks like Elmer Fudd.

    There has to be more to this story. The General must've pissed in Deb James' cheerios or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    otherwise the SECAF would be too open for him to appeal to the Board of Corrections of Military Records and be reinstated.
    Unless he screwed himself by being too "cooperative" with the witch hunt.
    Last edited by Rainmaker; 02-04-2017 at 01:20 PM.

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    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainmaker View Post
    It's hard to believe that in the climate of the last decade, a 40 year old woman was "coerced" multiple times ,over a period of years and assignments, into knocking boots with a guy who looks like Elmer Fudd.
    Maybe, I would also like to think that a Major or Lieutenant Colonel would have the nerve to tell him to go fuck himself ... literally I guess. At the same time, when I hear people resigning themselves that as an E6, 7, 8 or 9 etc. that there is nothing they can do to stop an abusive boss at the Company or Field Grades ... I would imagine that a Field Grade Officer could feel equally pressured by a 2-star ... assume that he is guilty, should she have had the backbone to stand up to him? Absolutely ... is it possible that she didn't ... absolutely.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainmaker View Post
    Unless he screwed himself by being too "cooperative" with the witch hunt.
    If he ever sent an email to her that compromised himself and she still had it, he could be as uncooperative as he wanted ... he would be screwed.

    Again, assuming he is / was guilty, 40 years ago, this likely would have gone nowhere, guilty or not ... because the mass public would have never heard about it; the FOGO's would have circled the wagons, there wouldn't be an electronic trail to follow and even if everything was true and he was guilty he just would have quietly headed out ... as it is now, the more people hear about it the more that the civilian leadership can't ignore it.

    Case in point, the Navy's "Fat Leonard scandal", we (the Navy) have been getting fleeced by overseas husbanding agents in foreign ports for decades (centuries?) ... and we have had people on the 'take' ... it is harder to hide and ignore now ... and when public outcry overrides the sentiment to just put someone to pasture ... they will go down.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

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    Senior Member Bos Mutus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garhkal View Post
    Well its 15 in the civilian sector for rape,
    Actually, it varies by state...from as little as 3 years up to no SOL.
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    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainmaker View Post
    It's hard to believe that in the climate of the last decade, a 40 year old woman was "coerced" multiple times ,over a period of years and assignments, into knocking boots with a guy who looks like Elmer Fudd.
    Especially from someone in the rank of Colonel. This is someone who is supposed to be commanding troops, someone with the confidence to lead, etc. If she can't even say no when she's the one probably pushing the SARC/SAPR/Green Dot programs to those who work for her. This shows she's not trustworthy in her position...what it does it show that women, in general, aren't cut out to be making command decisions if they are this easily "coerced". This isn't some young ignorant girl trying to impress. This is a 40 year old with college degrees and experience being in charge.

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    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    Especially from someone in the rank of Colonel. This is someone who is supposed to be commanding troops, someone with the confidence to lead, etc. If she can't even say no when she's the one probably pushing the SARC/SAPR/Green Dot programs to those who work for her. This shows she's not trustworthy in her position...what it does it show that women, in general, aren't cut out to be making command decisions if they are this easily "coerced". This isn't some young ignorant girl trying to impress. This is a 40 year old with college degrees and experience being in charge.
    SMH @ 'Green Dot' programs? WTF... Didn't the kids have enough already?

    Last edited by Rainmaker; 02-04-2017 at 04:33 PM.

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    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    Especially from someone in the rank of Colonel. This is someone who is supposed to be commanding troops, someone with the confidence to lead, etc. If she can't even say no when she's the one probably pushing the SARC/SAPR/Green Dot programs to those who work for her. This shows she's not trustworthy in her position...what it does it show that women, in general, aren't cut out to be making command decisions if they are this easily "coerced". This isn't some young ignorant girl trying to impress. This is a 40 year old with college degrees and experience being in charge.
    Because 40 year old men are never coerced into doing something that is wrong? Maybe not sex, but pencil whipping maintenance records, inventories etc. She wasn't a Colonel at the time, she currently is a Colonel, likely a Major or LtCol when it happened ... I am not arguing she should have had more backbone ... but don't think this is an indictment of women and their ability to lead.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    Because 40 year old men are never coerced into doing something that is wrong? Maybe not sex, but pencil whipping maintenance records, inventories etc. She wasn't a Colonel at the time, she currently is a Colonel, likely a Major or LtCol when it happened ... I am not arguing she should have had more backbone ... but don't think this is an indictment of women and their ability to lead.
    It's unclear from the OP if he was ever even charged with sexual harassment. Debbie can write him an LOR for virtual anything she wants. But, That don't make it true.

    Mrs. Rainmaker just retired out of the Reserves as an 0-4 (protocol officer). & Rainmaker can guarandamntee that lame "honey I felt coerced" excuse, sure as hell wouldn't be flyin' round these parts.

    Huh. Funny. Now that I'm thinking about it...... she never mentioned this 'green dot' thing, either.....
    Last edited by Rainmaker; 02-04-2017 at 05:06 PM.

  10. #30
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainmaker View Post
    It's unclear from the OP if he was ever even charged with sexual harassment. Debbie can write him an LOR for virtual anything she wants. But, That don't make it true.

    Mrs. Rainmaker just retired out of the Reserves as an 0-4 (protocol officer). & Rainmaker can guarandamntee that lame "honey I felt coerced" excuse, sure as hell wouldn't be flyin' round these parts.

    Huh. Funny. Now that I'm thinking about it...... she never mentioned this 'green dot' thing, either.....
    Am pretty sure me nor Mrs. Mjölnir could use that excuse around our house either.

    I don't think he was formally charged with anything based on the statute of limitations. Why this stayed a secret for 10 years is suspect but I would guess the field grade officer was likely ashamed, embarrassed and fearful of making an enemy of an influential flag officer. She should have stood up for herself, I can also understand she may have been concerned about her career.

    Me saying that I think coercion could have happened does not mean that I am absolving her of bad decision making, but I don't know her or the specifics of her situation. I have only been put in anything remotely like this once -- not sex, but told that SOP for the section was doing things that violated the security and ethics regs, I balked and at first was told my wanting to push the issue could go poorly for me. It was a bit choppy between me (O4) and the O6 for a while. It is easy to say that I would have made the same decision regardless of mitigating factors (at the time I was a new O4 and at 22 years of service) ... but I know that if I was an O4 at 13 or 14 years and really needing a good eval from that Col to promote it may have been more difficult. I have seen too many after actions of good people making bad decisions because they lose sight of the forest for the trees ... maybe that was the case; maybe whatever field this Col is in is one that selection to O6 isn't that "selective" and she is no superstar in the top 10% but neither in the bottom 10% ... mediocre folks promote at the bottom of the select list but they still promote too ... who knows.

    She should have made a better decision, but I don't think the SECAF reduces a General over something that is just suspect. I will be interested if he appeals ... if not I will assume that he knows he got off lucky since the statute of limitations had run out.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

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