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    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    BYU USAF ROTC may move over coffee

    http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/fait...ve-from-byu-to

    Brigham Young University requires all faculty, staff and students to sign an honor code which covers a multitude of things to include abstaining from coffee (even when not on campus). ROTC staff is considered faculty & staf fso they have to sign their honor code as well. The Air Force ROTC CO said he'd refrain from drinking coffee on campus but that he'd have coffee in his own home and wouldn't sign the honor code unless it allowed him to do so. BYU refused to allow such an amendment to their honor code.

    What I got from reading the article is that as a result of BYU not certifying the Col as faculty (due to not agreeing to the schools honor code) the USAF is considering moving the unit from being located at BYU (Provo UT) to UVU (Orem UT) ... a distance of about 3 miles.

    Currently the USAF ROTC unit has an agreement that includes students at UVU to participate in the ROTC program under the BYU Program / staff, this would flip that to UVU being the 'HQ', BYU being the 'det' (even though BYU has the larger proportion of ROTC cadets UVU has <30 and BYU has >120).

    So, BYU may loose the program, but the students can still participate in the program. There are multiple universities that are in close proximity that share one ROTC program ... University of Idaho and Washington State come to mind, another is mentioned in the article.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/fait...ve-from-byu-to

    Brigham Young University requires all faculty, staff and students to sign an honor code which covers a multitude of things to include abstaining from coffee (even when not on campus). ROTC staff is considered faculty & staf fso they have to sign their honor code as well. The Air Force ROTC CO said he'd refrain from drinking coffee on campus but that he'd have coffee in his own home and wouldn't sign the honor code unless it allowed him to do so. BYU refused to allow such an amendment to their honor code.

    What I got from reading the article is that as a result of BYU not certifying the Col as faculty (due to not agreeing to the schools honor code) the USAF is considering moving the unit from being located at BYU (Provo UT) to UVU (Orem UT) ... a distance of about 3 miles.

    Currently the USAF ROTC unit has an agreement that includes students at UVU to participate in the ROTC program under the BYU Program / staff, this would flip that to UVU being the 'HQ', BYU being the 'det' (even though BYU has the larger proportion of ROTC cadets UVU has <30 and BYU has >120).

    So, BYU may loose the program, but the students can still participate in the program. There are multiple universities that are in close proximity that share one ROTC program ... University of Idaho and Washington State come to mind, another is mentioned in the article.

    Uhhhhhhh.....ok.

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    Senior Member Bos Mutus's Avatar
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    Interesting...

    The ROTC CO is an active duty assignment, correct?

    Is it unreasonable to require someone to refrain from drinking coffee?

    Maybe...though we have rules about refraining from alcohol at some locations...but, seems like this should have been a screen-out element prior to assignment selection. "Are you willing to adhere to the BYU honor code which includes abstaining from caffeine?" Any "No" answer is disqualifying.

    But...the heck with them...I say go ahead and move it.
    Last edited by Bos Mutus; 01-30-2017 at 03:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    Interesting...

    The ROTC CO is an active duty assignment, correct?

    Is it unreasonable to require someone to refrain from drinking coffee?

    Maybe...though we have rules about refraining from alcohol at some locations...but, seems like this should have been a screen-out element prior to assignment selection. "Are you willing to adhere to the BYU honor code which includes abstaining from caffeine?" Any "No" answer is disqualifying.

    But...the heck with them...I say go ahead and move it.
    My wife and I are LDS "light" ... we drink soda and swear.

    The "no-coffee, no tea" thing doesn't really have to do with caffeine.

    When the church was founded, it as essentially pioneer times, you made things yourself. Think back to your Boy Scout camp days working on your Leatherworking merit badge, you spread things on leather to color / tan it. Things like coffee, tea, ... also urine and feces. The early Mormons equated that whatever must make coffee and tea tan leather must also be present in pee and poo ... they were right ... tannins/tannic acid. This prohibition was later incorporated into Section 89 of the church's Doctrine and Covenants as "hot drinks".

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctrine and Covenants
    Section 89
    1–9, The use of wine, strong drinks, tobacco, and hot drinks is proscribed; 10–17, Herbs, fruits, flesh, and grain are ordained for the use of man and of animals; 18–21, Obedience to gospel law, including the Word of Wisdom, brings temporal and spiritual blessings.

    Many modern Mormons (usually those born and raised in the Church) will just accept that it is caffeine and soda is also prohibited, it isn't. The previous President of the Church once said in an interview that Mormons avoid caffeine, many do ... in part because they consider it a mind altering drug, many because they don't know the history behind Section 89. Case in point, go to and LDS pot luck ... there will be chocolate cake or pudding (right next to the jello with fruit in it) and there is a fair amount of caffeine in chocolate.

    Does requiring the Col at the ROTC unit to comply with the LDS Church's dietary restriction as required of all faculty at BYU constitute a religious test which is prohibited buy Section VI article 3 of the Constitution? It may.

    Whether or not the Col knew about the requirement before he took the orders isn't really known (publically). I doubt every predecessor or member of the ROTC staff has adhered to it, they likely just signed the Honor Code agreement and went about their day. For the Col specifically it could be one of a few things:

    1. Col was not aware of the policy at all when he accepted orders.
    2. Col was not aware that the policy applied at all times vice "at work".
    3. Col knew about the policy, thought he could make it work and something changed.
    4. Col knew about the policy, decided to take the orders and make a point later. (not likely ...but possible)
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    Senior Member Bos Mutus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    My wife and I are LDS "light" ... we drink soda and swear.

    The "no-coffee, no tea" thing doesn't really have to do with caffeine.

    When the church was founded, it as essentially pioneer times, you made things yourself. Think back to your Boy Scout camp days working on your Leatherworking merit badge, you spread things on leather to color / tan it. Things like coffee, tea, ... also urine and feces. The early Mormons equated that whatever must make coffee and tea tan leather must also be present in pee and poo ... they were right ... tannins/tannic acid. This prohibition was later incorporated into Section 89 of the church's Doctrine and Covenants as "hot drinks".


    Many modern Mormons (usually those born and raised in the Church) will just accept that it is caffeine and soda is also prohibited, it isn't. The previous President of the Church once said in an interview that Mormons avoid caffeine, many do ... in part because they consider it a mind altering drug, many because they don't know the history behind Section 89. Case in point, go to and LDS pot luck ... there will be chocolate cake or pudding (right next to the jello with fruit in it) and there is a fair amount of caffeine in chocolate.
    Ahhhhh...interesting....I always thought it was a ban on caffeine.


    Does requiring the Col at the ROTC unit to comply with the LDS Church's dietary restriction as required of all faculty at BYU constitute a religious test which is prohibited buy Section VI article 3 of the Constitution? It may.
    Good question. I think we can assume that the CO is not required to be Mormon?...but is only expected to follow certain restrictions on conduct.

    Whether or not the Col knew about the requirement before he took the orders isn't really known (publically). I doubt every predecessor or member of the ROTC staff has adhered to it, they likely just signed the Honor Code agreement and went about their day. For the Col specifically it could be one of a few things:

    1. Col was not aware of the policy at all when he accepted orders.
    2. Col was not aware that the policy applied at all times vice "at work".
    3. Col knew about the policy, thought he could make it work and something changed.
    4. Col knew about the policy, decided to take the orders and make a point later. (not likely ...but possible)
    Right...but, I think we can say this code is very unusual for a military assignment...therefore the unique requirement should have been cleared up before the assignment was finalized.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    Ahhhhh...interesting....I always thought it was a ban on caffeine.
    Most do, I did until I looked into joinin gthe church. My wife (was born into an LDS family) thought it was about caffeine and when I told her it wasn't she asked her dad (lifetime member) was like "nah ... he's right".

    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    Good question. I think we can assume that the CO is not required to be Mormon?...but is only expected to follow certain restrictions on conduct.
    Probably can't be required to be Mormon, would be a religious test which isn't allowed (outside of legit clergy/chaplains).


    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    Right...but, I think we can say this code is very unusual for a military assignment...therefore the unique requirement should have been cleared up before the assignment was finalized.
    Which makes me wonder what was conveyed to him. BYU has had a USAF ROTC for decades ... the requirement for the honor code has been there for decades -- I would imagine some/most/all folks pencil whipped it ... not thinking twice about it. Bigger picture is that the USAF should probably have had something in the MOU with BYU that exempted the staff from that requirement.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    Interesting...

    The ROTC CO is an active duty assignment, correct?

    Is it unreasonable to require someone to refrain from drinking coffee?

    Maybe...though we have rules about refraining from alcohol at some locations...but, seems like this should have been a screen-out element prior to assignment selection. "Are you willing to adhere to the BYU honor code which includes abstaining from caffeine?" Any "No" answer is disqualifying.

    But...the heck with them...I say go ahead and move it.
    I can agree, an Honor code is a good idea, as long as all adhere to it. BUT no caffine? And one can't have it when NOT at ROTC? Fut the whuk..

    I mean it would be like say Walmart telling its employees "To be healthier, there will be no use of Tobaaco products. NOT EVEN WHEN YOU are off shift and sitting at home".. To me that would be illegal of them do make that sort of rule.
    SURE i can understand them doing so when AT WORK, but not when off shift...
    Last edited by garhkal; 01-30-2017 at 08:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garhkal View Post
    I mean it would be like say Walmart telling its employees "To be healthier, there will be no use of Tobaaco products. NOT EVEN WHEN YOU are off shift and sitting at home".. To me that would be illegal of them do make that sort of rule.
    SURE i can understand them doing so when AT WORK, but not when off shift...
    This happens. Not at Walmart but there are several companies that do have the requirement (even away from work).

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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    This happens. Not at Walmart but there are several companies that do have the requirement (even away from work).
    I was using walmart as an example. AND yes i know several companies (CVS) have tried implementing that and have YET to get challenged on its legality..

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