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Thread: BYU USAF ROTC may move over coffee

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    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    BYU USAF ROTC may move over coffee

    http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/fait...ve-from-byu-to

    Brigham Young University requires all faculty, staff and students to sign an honor code which covers a multitude of things to include abstaining from coffee (even when not on campus). ROTC staff is considered faculty & staf fso they have to sign their honor code as well. The Air Force ROTC CO said he'd refrain from drinking coffee on campus but that he'd have coffee in his own home and wouldn't sign the honor code unless it allowed him to do so. BYU refused to allow such an amendment to their honor code.

    What I got from reading the article is that as a result of BYU not certifying the Col as faculty (due to not agreeing to the schools honor code) the USAF is considering moving the unit from being located at BYU (Provo UT) to UVU (Orem UT) ... a distance of about 3 miles.

    Currently the USAF ROTC unit has an agreement that includes students at UVU to participate in the ROTC program under the BYU Program / staff, this would flip that to UVU being the 'HQ', BYU being the 'det' (even though BYU has the larger proportion of ROTC cadets UVU has <30 and BYU has >120).

    So, BYU may loose the program, but the students can still participate in the program. There are multiple universities that are in close proximity that share one ROTC program ... University of Idaho and Washington State come to mind, another is mentioned in the article.
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    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/fait...ve-from-byu-to

    Brigham Young University requires all faculty, staff and students to sign an honor code which covers a multitude of things to include abstaining from coffee (even when not on campus). ROTC staff is considered faculty & staf fso they have to sign their honor code as well. The Air Force ROTC CO said he'd refrain from drinking coffee on campus but that he'd have coffee in his own home and wouldn't sign the honor code unless it allowed him to do so. BYU refused to allow such an amendment to their honor code.

    What I got from reading the article is that as a result of BYU not certifying the Col as faculty (due to not agreeing to the schools honor code) the USAF is considering moving the unit from being located at BYU (Provo UT) to UVU (Orem UT) ... a distance of about 3 miles.

    Currently the USAF ROTC unit has an agreement that includes students at UVU to participate in the ROTC program under the BYU Program / staff, this would flip that to UVU being the 'HQ', BYU being the 'det' (even though BYU has the larger proportion of ROTC cadets UVU has <30 and BYU has >120).

    So, BYU may loose the program, but the students can still participate in the program. There are multiple universities that are in close proximity that share one ROTC program ... University of Idaho and Washington State come to mind, another is mentioned in the article.

    Uhhhhhhh.....ok.

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    Senior Member Bos Mutus's Avatar
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    Interesting...

    The ROTC CO is an active duty assignment, correct?

    Is it unreasonable to require someone to refrain from drinking coffee?

    Maybe...though we have rules about refraining from alcohol at some locations...but, seems like this should have been a screen-out element prior to assignment selection. "Are you willing to adhere to the BYU honor code which includes abstaining from caffeine?" Any "No" answer is disqualifying.

    But...the heck with them...I say go ahead and move it.
    Last edited by Bos Mutus; 01-30-2017 at 03:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    Interesting...

    The ROTC CO is an active duty assignment, correct?

    Is it unreasonable to require someone to refrain from drinking coffee?

    Maybe...though we have rules about refraining from alcohol at some locations...but, seems like this should have been a screen-out element prior to assignment selection. "Are you willing to adhere to the BYU honor code which includes abstaining from caffeine?" Any "No" answer is disqualifying.

    But...the heck with them...I say go ahead and move it.
    My wife and I are LDS "light" ... we drink soda and swear.

    The "no-coffee, no tea" thing doesn't really have to do with caffeine.

    When the church was founded, it as essentially pioneer times, you made things yourself. Think back to your Boy Scout camp days working on your Leatherworking merit badge, you spread things on leather to color / tan it. Things like coffee, tea, ... also urine and feces. The early Mormons equated that whatever must make coffee and tea tan leather must also be present in pee and poo ... they were right ... tannins/tannic acid. This prohibition was later incorporated into Section 89 of the church's Doctrine and Covenants as "hot drinks".

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctrine and Covenants
    Section 89
    1–9, The use of wine, strong drinks, tobacco, and hot drinks is proscribed; 10–17, Herbs, fruits, flesh, and grain are ordained for the use of man and of animals; 18–21, Obedience to gospel law, including the Word of Wisdom, brings temporal and spiritual blessings.

    Many modern Mormons (usually those born and raised in the Church) will just accept that it is caffeine and soda is also prohibited, it isn't. The previous President of the Church once said in an interview that Mormons avoid caffeine, many do ... in part because they consider it a mind altering drug, many because they don't know the history behind Section 89. Case in point, go to and LDS pot luck ... there will be chocolate cake or pudding (right next to the jello with fruit in it) and there is a fair amount of caffeine in chocolate.

    Does requiring the Col at the ROTC unit to comply with the LDS Church's dietary restriction as required of all faculty at BYU constitute a religious test which is prohibited buy Section VI article 3 of the Constitution? It may.

    Whether or not the Col knew about the requirement before he took the orders isn't really known (publically). I doubt every predecessor or member of the ROTC staff has adhered to it, they likely just signed the Honor Code agreement and went about their day. For the Col specifically it could be one of a few things:

    1. Col was not aware of the policy at all when he accepted orders.
    2. Col was not aware that the policy applied at all times vice "at work".
    3. Col knew about the policy, thought he could make it work and something changed.
    4. Col knew about the policy, decided to take the orders and make a point later. (not likely ...but possible)
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    Senior Member Bos Mutus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    My wife and I are LDS "light" ... we drink soda and swear.

    The "no-coffee, no tea" thing doesn't really have to do with caffeine.

    When the church was founded, it as essentially pioneer times, you made things yourself. Think back to your Boy Scout camp days working on your Leatherworking merit badge, you spread things on leather to color / tan it. Things like coffee, tea, ... also urine and feces. The early Mormons equated that whatever must make coffee and tea tan leather must also be present in pee and poo ... they were right ... tannins/tannic acid. This prohibition was later incorporated into Section 89 of the church's Doctrine and Covenants as "hot drinks".


    Many modern Mormons (usually those born and raised in the Church) will just accept that it is caffeine and soda is also prohibited, it isn't. The previous President of the Church once said in an interview that Mormons avoid caffeine, many do ... in part because they consider it a mind altering drug, many because they don't know the history behind Section 89. Case in point, go to and LDS pot luck ... there will be chocolate cake or pudding (right next to the jello with fruit in it) and there is a fair amount of caffeine in chocolate.
    Ahhhhh...interesting....I always thought it was a ban on caffeine.


    Does requiring the Col at the ROTC unit to comply with the LDS Church's dietary restriction as required of all faculty at BYU constitute a religious test which is prohibited buy Section VI article 3 of the Constitution? It may.
    Good question. I think we can assume that the CO is not required to be Mormon?...but is only expected to follow certain restrictions on conduct.

    Whether or not the Col knew about the requirement before he took the orders isn't really known (publically). I doubt every predecessor or member of the ROTC staff has adhered to it, they likely just signed the Honor Code agreement and went about their day. For the Col specifically it could be one of a few things:

    1. Col was not aware of the policy at all when he accepted orders.
    2. Col was not aware that the policy applied at all times vice "at work".
    3. Col knew about the policy, thought he could make it work and something changed.
    4. Col knew about the policy, decided to take the orders and make a point later. (not likely ...but possible)
    Right...but, I think we can say this code is very unusual for a military assignment...therefore the unique requirement should have been cleared up before the assignment was finalized.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    Ahhhhh...interesting....I always thought it was a ban on caffeine.
    Most do, I did until I looked into joinin gthe church. My wife (was born into an LDS family) thought it was about caffeine and when I told her it wasn't she asked her dad (lifetime member) was like "nah ... he's right".

    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    Good question. I think we can assume that the CO is not required to be Mormon?...but is only expected to follow certain restrictions on conduct.
    Probably can't be required to be Mormon, would be a religious test which isn't allowed (outside of legit clergy/chaplains).


    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    Right...but, I think we can say this code is very unusual for a military assignment...therefore the unique requirement should have been cleared up before the assignment was finalized.
    Which makes me wonder what was conveyed to him. BYU has had a USAF ROTC for decades ... the requirement for the honor code has been there for decades -- I would imagine some/most/all folks pencil whipped it ... not thinking twice about it. Bigger picture is that the USAF should probably have had something in the MOU with BYU that exempted the staff from that requirement.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

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    Senior Member Bos Mutus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    Most do, I did until I looked into joinin gthe church. My wife (was born into an LDS family) thought it was about caffeine and when I told her it wasn't she asked her dad (lifetime member) was like "nah ... he's right".
    At the risk of derailing the thread...

    Did you come to the Mormon Church on your own...or to join your wife/required to be married, etc.?

    If it's the first, then okay, sure...if it's the second, I've always wondered how someone could be, "Hey, this is what I believe...but, I will change and start believing this."....seems odd to me how someone can do that.

    I get it if it's like two similar closely related denominations where the doctrine is basically the same just some of the practices/procedures are different...but when it's a fairly big belief change...i.e. I've seen people covert to Judaism or Christianity or vice versa...or protestant/catholic because they needed to in order to get married or because it was a big issue for one family or the other, etc...but, I don't really get how someone can change what they actually believe that way.

    Like I said...if it was a personal conversion, that's different.
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    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    At the risk of derailing the thread...

    Did you come to the Mormon Church on your own...or to join your wife/required to be married, etc.?

    If it's the first, then okay, sure...if it's the second, I've always wondered how someone could be, "Hey, this is what I believe...but, I will change and start believing this."....seems odd to me how someone can do that.

    I get it if it's like two similar closely related denominations where the doctrine is basically the same just some of the practices/procedures are different...but when it's a fairly big belief change...i.e. I've seen people covert to Judaism or Christianity or vice versa...or protestant/catholic because they needed to in order to get married or because it was a big issue for one family or the other, etc...but, I don't really get how someone can change what they actually believe that way.

    Like I said...if it was a personal conversion, that's different.
    The Mormon Mafia's recruiting network is deeply imbedded within the US Military & intelligence agencies......

    IMO their core value system (with its emphasis on self-reliance, volunteerism, industriousness and pious law-abiding nature).... is what makes them a natural fit for success in the IC.

    They can be very very convincing. Back when Rainmaker left the Catholics, He seriously considered joining up with the LDS himself....... But, didn't want to give up the cinnamon Nicorette gum.
    Last edited by Rainmaker; 01-30-2017 at 06:36 PM.

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    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    At the risk of derailing the thread...

    Did you come to the Mormon Church on your own...or to join your wife/required to be married, etc.?
    I converted 5 years before I met my wife ... and not for a different Mormon girl but a bona fide desire to change my life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    If it's the first, then okay, sure...if it's the second, I've always wondered how someone could be, "Hey, this is what I believe...but, I will change and start believing this."....seems odd to me how someone can do that.

    I get it if it's like two similar closely related denominations where the doctrine is basically the same just some of the practices/procedures are different...but when it's a fairly big belief change...i.e. I've seen people covert to Judaism or Christianity or vice versa...or protestant/catholic because they needed to in order to get married or because it was a big issue for one family or the other, etc...but, I don't really get how someone can change what they actually believe that way.

    Like I said...if it was a personal conversion, that's different.
    I know many guys who have converted because of a girl, and a few girls that converted for a guy. Mormons recognize civil marriage, but a temple marriage is considered to not end "when death do you part", to be married in the temple you have to be a church member in good standing. Many born and raised Mormons (and coverts alike) want the temple marriage.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

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    Senior Member Bos Mutus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainmaker View Post
    IMO their core value system (with its emphasis on self-reliance, volunteerism, industriousness and pious law-abiding nature).... is what makes them a natural fit for success in the IC..
    I remember years ago AFN used to have Public Service Announcements that were sponsored by the Mormon Church...

    They were all good stuff, about family and community and stuff that anybody would agree with...some good perspectives and positive messages. At the end they would just say, "This public service announcement was brought to you by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints."

    I've known a fair amount of Mormon's...can't recall any of them ever trying to convert me.
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