Page 5 of 7 FirstFirst ... 34567 LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 61

Thread: BAH Going Away?

  1. #41
    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    6,984
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    I didn't get that he was saying they worked harder, but that they had worked hard ...
    You wouldn't get that...that's the point.

    I don't take that as a non-SNCO hasn't worked hard ... I think you did. I think at that point in a military career that someone is hitting the 20 year mark, they should be hitting squarely in the middle class area ... granted, some people at that point are going to retire as E6's, some as O5's. Being that I think our current total compensation packages (short of the E9, O9/O10 area) are just about right for the levels of responsibility etc. ... I don't see anything wrong with the O5 having a larger pension than the E6 ... that doesn't mean (no matter how you try to translate it) that I think the E6 didn't work hard nor earn their pension.[/QUOTE] O5 should DEFINITELY have a larger pension. I don't question that for a second.



    Do you?
    Yes, I do.


    Sorry for so many typos ... was on the elliptical.
    Ahhh...Post New Year's fitness kick?

  2. #42
    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    on a Marl Road
    Posts
    3,883
    Mentioned
    39 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    E8, E9...sure. E7s are pretty much a floor supervisor...working class...at best.
    Disagree. (not about the bitch part). I rated on 31 people as an E-7.

    But, Rainmaker don't think BAH should be even be changed at all & nobody said anything about other ranks "not working as hard".

    The hardest I ever worked in my 23 year Military career was as an E-4 (Artilleryman) during 8 months of Desert storm.
    So, stop constantly getting your panties all twisted up, just because you didn't try hard enough to get yourself promoted.
    Last edited by Rainmaker; 01-04-2017 at 10:00 PM.

  3. #43
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Posts
    2,965
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    E8, E9...sure. E7s are pretty much a floor supervisor...working class...at best.
    A floor supervisor is more likely middle than working class ... probably what an E7 does depends on the service in many ways ...

    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    Same goes for O1-O3..no chance...they are apprentice level at best...graduating from college doesn't guarantee middle class and up. So, I disagree highly that SNCOs/Officers should be middle class.
    I will concur with you here, a lot unemployed college graduates out there not doing anything; dedicating time & effort. The biggger point I think that is that when you are talking about an E7 or O3 serving with or retiring after 20 (or more) years with the 'company' ... that is probably deserving of a middle class compensation package.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

  4. #44
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Posts
    2,965
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    You wouldn't get that...that's the point.
    Steven, I think it the point is that the giant chip you have on your shoulder which turns too many things that really aren't about rank (current or former) into a conversation about rank and how your magic line of where people suddenly become stupid, ignorant or both is at the E7 or O1 level, whether or not it has to do with where you completed your career or not I don't know ...

    I am 100% confident that you worked hard in your 20 year USAF career, you have said many times that you didn't want to be a MSgt, and didn't do the types of the things that would have gotten you promoted. If that is true, I am happy for you and that you got what you wanted out of your career and were edified by it. Honestly, your postings often come across like someone who isn't okay with it, and harbors significant hostility about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    Ahhh...Post New Year's fitness kick?
    25-year fitness kick ... I want to look like Wolverine when I hit 45 this year.

    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

  5. #45
    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    6,984
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainmaker View Post
    Disagree. (not about the bitch part). I rated on 31 people as an E-7.

    But, Rainmaker don't think BAH should be even be changed at all & nobody said anything about other ranks "not working as hard".

    The hardest I ever worked in my 23 year Military career was as an E-4 (Artilleryman) during 8 months of Desert storm.
    So, stop constantly getting your panties all twisted up, just because you didn't try hard enough to get yourself promoted.
    I know this is hard for you elitists to understand, but it had nothing to do with trying or not trying. I absolutely didn't want it.

  6. #46
    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    6,984
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    A floor supervisor is more likely middle than working class ... probably what an E7 does depends on the service in many ways ...



    I will concur with you here, a lot unemployed college graduates out there not doing anything; dedicating time & effort. The biggger point I think that is that when you are talking about an E7 or O3 serving with or retiring after 20 (or more) years with the 'company' ... that is probably deserving of a middle class compensation package.
    Can an O3 even retire as an O3? I guess if they are prior enlisted? But, no, an 03 has no claim to "deserving" middle class. Hell, O3 is the same as E4...unless you kill someone you're going to make it just by not getting kicked out. Is that who we want to "reward"? I guess, if you believe in participation trophies.

  7. #47
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Posts
    2,965
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    Can an O3 even retire as an O3? I guess if they are prior enlisted?
    Unless you are a Medical Corps Officer, yeah ... you would have to be prior enlisted (as far as I know). O

    But, no, an 03 has no claim to "deserving" middle class. Hell, O3 is the same as E4...unless you kill someone you're going to make it just by not getting kicked out. Is that who we want to "reward"? I guess, if you believe in participation trophies.[/QUOTE]

    Yes promotion to O3 is automatic (technically in the USN and USMC it is 'selective' -- but the selection rate is somewhere around 99.9999% -- only time I have seen someone not get it was as a result of a DUI or a failure to achieve required qualification). However the levels of responsibility for an E4 and O3 are going to be really different. As an O3, I was a Department Head (Operations Officer) on a destroyer, I had about 135 people in my department, a $22 million dollar maintenance budget, at sea I stood watch as the Tactical Action Officer (responsible for control of all ships offensive and defensive weapons systems with authority to release those weapons on my judgement.

    As an E4 (all three times) I worked my ass off ... but did not have that kind of responsibility.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

  8. #48
    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    6,984
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    Steven, I think it the point is that the giant chip you have on your shoulder which turns too many things that really aren't about rank (current or former) into a conversation about rank and how your magic line of where people suddenly become stupid, ignorant or both is at the E7 or O1 level, whether or not it has to do with where you completed your career or not I don't know ...
    Steven? Really? Is that how you get your subordinates attention? By relating to them personally with first names? That's day 1 of Commandership 101, right?

    I'm not claiming that E7s/O1s are stupid. Some of the best people I know are SNCOs...and I am perfectly happy with where I completed my career. I served 20 years honorably...and have nothing to be ashamed of...why it's ever even insinuated that a retiring E6 should feel ashamed is beyond me.

    I am 100% confident that you worked hard in your 20 year USAF career, you have said many times that you didn't want to be a MSgt, and didn't do the types of the things that would have gotten you promoted. If that is true, I am happy for you and that you got what you wanted out of your career and were edified by it. Honestly, your postings often come across like someone who isn't okay with it, and harbors significant hostility about it.
    This is what you don't get...I'm not bitter because I didn't make the rank...I didn't make the rank because I'm not programmed to be in a management position...and I'm not bothered at all saying that...I've said it several times. The reason I know I'm not programmed to be in a management position is because the "mentors" I had throughout my career and were in those positions, the stuff they had to give up, and the parts of their personalities they had to compromise in order to be "successful" in those positions weren't the compromises I was willing to make.



    25-year fitness kick ... I want to look like Wolverine when I hit 45 this year.

    March 3rd...hope they do X23 right.

  9. #49
    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    6,984
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    Unless you are a Medical Corps Officer, yeah ... you would have to be prior enlisted (as far as I know). O

    But, no, an 03 has no claim to "deserving" middle class. Hell, O3 is the same as E4...unless you kill someone you're going to make it just by not getting kicked out. Is that who we want to "reward"? I guess, if you believe in participation trophies.
    Yes promotion to O3 is automatic (technically in the USN and USMC it is 'selective' -- but the selection rate is somewhere around 99.9999% -- only time I have seen someone not get it was as a result of a DUI or a failure to achieve required qualification). However the levels of responsibility for an E4 and O3 are going to be really different. As an O3, I was a Department Head (Operations Officer) on a destroyer, I had about 135 people in my department, a $22 million dollar maintenance budget, at sea I stood watch as the Tactical Action Officer (responsible for control of all ships offensive and defensive weapons systems with authority to release those weapons on my judgement. [/QUOTE] Very impressive, but I'm well aware of your resume...you do enjoy sharing it.

    As an E4 (all three times) I worked my ass off ... but did not have that kind of responsibility.
    I can show you several EPRs for E4s and E5s that would far exceed those numbers...

  10. #50
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Posts
    2,965
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    Steven? Really? Is that how you get your subordinates attention? By relating to them personally with first names? That's day 1 of Commandership 101, right?
    No, I am sincerely trying to communicate with you. I don't consider you my subordinate ...

    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    I'm not claiming that E7s/O1s are stupid. Some of the best people I know are SNCOs...and I am perfectly happy with where I completed my career. I served 20 years honorably...and have nothing to be ashamed of...why it's ever even insinuated that a retiring E6 should feel ashamed is beyond me.
    I don't see where anyone did insinuate that nor do I think anyone should feel ashamed of that.


    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    This is what you don't get...I'm not bitter because I didn't make the rank...I didn't make the rank because I'm not programmed to be in a management position...and I'm not bothered at all saying that...I've said it several times. The reason I know I'm not programmed to be in a management position is because the "mentors" I had throughout my career and were in those positions, the stuff they had to give up, and the parts of their personalities they had to compromise in order to be "successful" in those positions weren't the compromises I was willing to make.
    My first Division (like a Flight) in the Navy, was more than 50% E6's (about 10 of them). About 3/4 of them were going to retire as E6's ... most were okay with that. Some had not done sea duty (Navy promotion boards like it when you go on ships), not taken leadership roles etc. because they did't want to do that stuff and were okay to retire as an E6. I had a couple though who were very bitter. Granted, they hadn't gone to sea as an E6, but "didn't need to, I am good at my job on shore duty" etc. They were pissed at the system as they watched people pass them by who maybe weren't as talented but got the check in the box where they needed to so they could be be competitive. I asked one who was content with the scenario once why he chose not to go to sea; he didn't want to be separated from his wife for 6-month stints and he decided not making E7 was fine so he and his wife could be happy. To this day I am in touch with that guy and I have a lot of respect for his decision -- mostly because he made his choice and accepted the consequences of it. I had little respect for those who made their choice then blamed the system or held in contempt those around them who wanted to promote and did what they needed to do so.

    I would argue not everyone who gets to those positions compromises their personalities, the best leaders (enlisted and officer) I have worked with were those who didn't compromise their personalities and remained themselves as they advanced. Yes, there are sacrifices, deployments, late nights etc. Yes, at some point you don't really have the option to say "end of the day, I'm out", or say "damn that sucks ... not my problem", you have to go to the once a year cocktail party, join the Officer's Club or explain to the Commanding General personally why you don't want to. Some of those things are what make the military more than "just a job" ... if you want it to be "just a job" that is fine, I am one of those who think of it as more than that though. Most who think it is just a job, likely will hit a glass ceiling at some point ... nothing wrong with that ... as long as people accept it.

    I would offer -- you picked the USAF because it most matched what you wanted / your personality. My opinion is that the Air Force is the most corporate of the military services ... not saying it is wrong or bad ... but it is what is. Advancement in that type of system requires some level of a corporate mindset; something you readily admit you don't have/want to have ... not saying that as a negative. Having been in the Marines (the least corporate IMO) and now the Navy, leadership is very different ... how you advance and / succeed is different ... but to advance there are still sacrifices and things you have to do:

    -Want to be a 1stSgt in the Marines? Probably need to be a DI, Embassy Guard or recruiter at some point. But by and large, charge hard and get shit done and you are going to promote.
    -Want to be a CAPT in the Navy? Probably need to be a CO as an CDR. Want to be a LCDR (O4), you need to perform / break out in about the top 50% of O3's (not a high bar watermark ... but that is what it is)

    Mostly though, promotion isn't a reward for doing good at your current rank ... it is a recognition that you can perform at the next one (granted, the Peter Principle will take effect). I knew a lot of kick ass Sgts who never made SSgt ... most should never have made it, some I think got screwed. Same with some O3's I know who have been passed to O4.

    The service you joined had its culture, based on how you have described yourself, and what I know of the Air Force ... it was likely a mixed bag. The Air Force is the least military, "softest" of the services ... but definitely the most corporate ... life won't be as hard as the Marines, but if you don't like corporate style BS ... the USAF likely isn't a good fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    March 3rd...hope they do X23 right.
    If they fuck up Logan I am seriously going to burn the theater down.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •