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Thread: 2016 Election Post Mortem

  1. #51
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    I don't think that is debatable.

    IRT racism in a candidate, let's be fair, racism by HRC wasn't a deal breaker for those that voted for her either. I know you were not a fan of HRC, but I think you are focusing on an issue with DJT that you had or were otherwise willing to overlook by the democratic candidate.

    -Trump stoked the fires of the birther movement (which I am not convinced was a racists issue but ...), however the birther movement was started by HRC's campaign in 2007.

    -HRC referred to WJC's campaign manager as a "f*cking Jew bastard".

    -HRC made jokes about Indians including Gandhi owning gas stations.

    -HRC referred to "Colored people's time", referencing that blacks are always running late.

    -HRC referred to (some) black men as "super-predators" - regarding the disproportionate percentage of crimes committed by black males compared to their overall share of the population.

    -Then you could have a long debate on whether her policies and proposals were really helpful to the minority community.
    You could say that it wasn't a deal breaker under the following conditions:

    1. The majority of the people who voted for her knew what she has said about minorities,
    2. She actually CAMPAIGNED on these sentiments, and expressed them to get votes, and
    3. She promised to make laws and policies against these groups.

    Clinton does not meet any of those conditions. Trumps meets all three.

    By the way, in reference to "colored people time," it's pretty much a self-depreciatory inside joke within the black community. Because she's married to Bill Clinton (whom many in the black community consider to be an "honorary" black man), she felt that she was "down" enough to use it. Many black people thought she was, others didn't. That's what all the fuss was about.

    IRT race/racism and Trump. He has said a lot of stupid things, he also showed evidence of discrimination for decades ... at the same time he has hired and put minorities in various positions to include executive positions within his organization.

    I won't say he isn't racist, but am inclined to think he's less racist than ambivalent about race if you are a hard worker. I get the impression he's a businessman with little time to spend on ensuring he has a diverse staff or executive boardroom, top performers rise to the top regardless of gender or race.
    You're saying that some minorities were simply given a "pass" based on work ethic?

    -I know you preferred Sanders, but I never saw him as strong on race, particularly when Sanders insinuated that all blacks live in ghettos?
    He didn't. He simply said that white people don't know what it's like to live in the ghetto. That doesn't insinuate that all blacks live in ghettos.

    -Not really racism, but following the Democrat Primaries in Nevada Sanders supporters sent death threats to a female Democratic Party official because they were outraged at what occurred at the Nevada state convention, I was not overly surprised. but when Bernie Sanders declined to denounce such behavior vigorously, I was very surprised, this does not to me embody someone I would consider tolerant or ... but ... progressive isn't necessarily tolerant. Just as Donald Trump’s supporters would not demonstrate thuggish behavior, such as assaulting protesters, without getting signals from their leader that it’s acceptable, the same is could be considered true of Sanders’s supporters.
    Bernie Sanders has defended Hillary Clinton from his own supporters, and to his detriment. Numerous times. Something that Trump would never do.

    After decades of the DNC practicing racially or gender polarizing politics, I don't think anyone should be surprised that it is now prominent with portions of the GOP as well; but I would argue not to only think that the candidate or politician you don't like is the only one doing it.
    But what you can't argue is that both sides are campaigning for making policies based on racism or sexism.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

  2. #52
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WILDJOKER5 View Post
    Dude, before 2014, chanting "U.S.A." was the equivalent. It's nothing new and the kids are just trolling the other school. They have zero understanding of what they are saying or the mechanics that will go into building the wall.
    That's all besides the point. BM was suggesting that one could be in favor of building the wall and still hate Trump. I pointed out that this wasn't the case here, because they were referencing Trump.

    Pay attention, man!
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

  3. #53
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    What?

    I'm not following you at all let alone agreeing. The Trump package included a lot of objectionable stuff. I don't think a border wall was one of those things.
    Trump specifically stated that he's going to build a wall and make Mexico pay for it. You must be living under a rock if you didn't know that. When called on it, he doubled down every time.

    So you didn't know? Now you do.

    Shouting "Build that wall" at a heavily Latino school is objectionable...but the idea of a wall, I don't think is any more objectionable than restrictions on who can immigrate here...it's just a method of enforcement...same as checking credentials the border...searching cars, etc. Or having a visa system.
    What makes walls stand out is their symbolic nature. It tells people on the other side that they're not wanted or welcome on our side of the wall.

    He didn't invent the idea of a wall, either.
    But he invented the idea of campaigning on it, though.

    The whole point was...just because he campaigned on some ideas doesn't mean that if you like or support one or more than you endorse him as a candidate and subscribe to everything he campaigned on.
    The problem? Trump really didn't campaign on much more than that.

    He only campaigned on things that could be referenced in qualitative language, not quantitative.
    Last edited by Rusty Jones; 11-23-2016 at 06:29 PM.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

  4. #54
    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post



    He simply said that white people don't know what it's like to live in the ghetto.
    Wasn't your Mom white & supposedly living in a housing project in Connecticut?

  5. #55
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainmaker View Post
    Wasn't your Mom white & supposedly living in a housing project in Connecticut?
    No, my father is white.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

  6. #56
    Senior Member Bos Mutus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Trump specifically stated that he's going to build a wall and make Mexico pay for it. You must be living under a rock if you didn't know that. When called on it, he doubled down every time.

    So you didn't know? Now you do.
    Yes...I know this. It's not that I didn't know he said that, it's that I didn't find that one item objectionable....I found plenty other things objectionable.

    What makes walls stand out is their symbolic nature. It tells people on the other side that they're not wanted or welcome on our side of the wall.
    Well, we don't let just any old Mexican in the country, do we? No, they have to get a proper visa or whatever.

    But he invented the idea of campaigning on it, though.
    So?

    The problem? Trump really didn't campaign on much more than that.
    He said many objectionable things...racist, sexist things...that could cause one to vote against him even if one were in favor of building a wall on the Mexican border.

    He only campaigned on things that could be referenced in qualitative language, not quantitative.
    I do not like Trump, I did not vote for him, I think he's pretty much a buffoon and campaigned on a lot of racist thinking and appeal.

    However, I'm not opposed to the idea of a physical barrier on our border with Mexico. Does not have to be a continuous 2,000 mile wall...I understand parts of the terrain make that difficult...but...building some walls doesn't sound like a bad idea to me, in fact, I'm pretty sure we already have some walls.

    I don't think Mexico will pay for it...but from what I gather he plans to leverage the power of our trade deficit to make them do it. i.e. "Build that wall or we'll stop buying your shit or put tariffs on it, etc." yes, there are a lot of ripple effects to that...that said, I'm not endorsing the plan to have Mexico pay for it, but the idea of a wall on the border alone seems sensible to me.
    Last edited by Bos Mutus; 11-24-2016 at 02:11 AM.
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  7. #57
    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post

    I don't think Mexico will pay for it...but from what I gather he plans to leverage the power of our trade deficit to make them do it. i.e. "Build that wall or we'll stop buying your shit or put tariffs on it, etc." yes, there are a lot of ripple effects to that.
    Actually, he plans to pay for it by cutting off the remittances for the $24 Billion a year in cash currently getting sucked out of the country by Mexican Foreign Nationals working here illegally. Perfectly reasonable idea.

    But, Of course "in-depth analysis by CNN" failed to adequately cover it, as they were too busy warning us that Donald Trump is literally Adolph Hitler
    Last edited by Rainmaker; 11-24-2016 at 12:42 AM.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Bos Mutus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainmaker View Post
    Actually, he plans to pay for it by cutting off the $ 24 Billion a year in cash remittances currently getting sucked out of the country by Mexican Foreign Nationals working here illegally. Perfectly reasonable plan.
    That's not a reasonable plan at all. It's not his money to spend.

    If there were no illegals working here, couldn't we assume that the employers would pay someone here legally to do the work...still not Trump's money to spend.

    OR, maybe they don't get the work done and keep the money themselves...still not Trump's administration money to spend.

    What you're talking about is farmworker Jose works the farm for farm owner Chad. Chad pays Jose $1,000 and Jose sends $800 of it back to Mexico for his family.

    But, Of course "in depth analysis by CNN" failed to mention it, as they were too busy telling us how Donald Trump is literally Adolph Hitler
    I haven't seen that in his plan...but, if it is, it's a big fail. How does Trump get that money to build the wall? It is the employer's money.

    I assumed he had some kind of plan to actually get Mexico to pay for it leveraging the fact that our economy buys a lot from them and they don't buy as much from us.
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  9. #59
    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    That's not a reasonable plan at all. It's not his money to spend.

    If there were no illegals working here, couldn't we assume that the employers would pay someone here legally to do the work...still not Trump's money to spend.

    OR, maybe they don't get the work done and keep the money themselves...still not Trump's administration money to spend.



    What you're talking about is farmworker Jose works the farm for farm owner Chad. Chad pays Jose $1,000 and Jose sends $800 of it back to Mexico for his family.



    I haven't seen that in his plan...but, if it is, it's a big fail. How does Trump get that money to build the wall? It is the employer's money.

    I assumed he had some kind of plan to actually get Mexico to pay for it leveraging the fact that our economy buys a lot from them and they don't buy as much from us.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/apps/...007/?tid=a_inl

    If you rob a bank and get caught, your kids don't get to keep the money......Pretty simple. we're either a Nation of laws or we aren't.
    Last edited by Rainmaker; 11-24-2016 at 01:26 AM.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Bos Mutus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainmaker View Post
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/apps/...007/?tid=a_inl

    If you rob a bank and get caught, your kids don't get to keep the money......Pretty simple. we're either a Nation of laws or we aren't.
    The govt doesn't get the money when they stop robbers, either.

    The memo posted basically says he will use the threat of stopping the banks from transferring money in order to convince Mexico to pay for the wall...not to use that money...nor to actually stop the transfers.

    Think about it, though, in order for that to work, he has to agree to continue to allow the transfers if Mexico pays for the wall. If he's gonna just 'stop the robbers'...then why would Mexico build the wall?

    Memo also mentions threats of tariffs as was my understanding of his leverage.
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