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Thread: Female hair standards

  1. #21
    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    Not sure when the 1stSgt or equal opportunity officer became a field grade officer.
    Truth be told Commander, Rainmaker can't speak for the Navy Seapersons.

    However, In Debbie James' New AF, It's always the safe play for a young NCO to first contact AT LEAST a Colonel 0-6 (or better yet a Civilian Presidential appointee), before risking an EEO complaint (by telling a 'person of color' (®) , to get a hair cut and potentially hurting their feelings.

    See? It's mission critical now that E-4s and above become intimately familiar with Section 1111 of Public Law 106-398 and The National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2011 (or subsequently enacted similar legislation) before making these types of potentially controversial decisions.

    If 'Folks' (®) still have questions (after memorizing the entirety of the United states code) then they should contact their friendly Air Force Deputy Assistant Secretary for Strategic Diversity Integration for further guidence. FORWARD!!
    Last edited by Rainmaker; 10-13-2016 at 04:17 PM.

  2. #22
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    I'm in a joint unit - mostly Air Force. We just had Air Force EO (I think they took the "M" out of it and just call themselves EO like the Army does). This is what one of the EO people said. Next time you have someone "threaten" to go to EO, just tell them "Let me take you up there." She said people who are abusing the EO system generally drop it pretty quick when their NCO says they're going to take them.

    They told us as long as you follow regulation you don't have a problem. People can make a complaint all they want - but they said here that the majority of times people come to them it isn't even a legitimate EO violation. It's people getting offended. They said they usually get it resolved in the command and they haven't filed too many formal complaints here on the base. She said most of it here is inappropriate workplace actions and comments. Not someone actually discriminating.

    I would love for a soldier I correct to report me to EO. Please do so. They will end up looking like the biggest idiot in the world once I have the regulation with me and show them in front of everyone how they were wrong. I don't care what color or gender or anything they are. If you're fucked up, you're fucked up!!

    I agree with the statement that I think in all regulations it only goes so far and then it's up to the commander or the NCO to use their best judgment on interpreting that regulation. If her hair is unprofessional and she has ignored your repeated order to fix it, take it up the chain. But make sure there's paperwork. I don't know how AF JAG is but when I was at Riley, if you didn't have the paperwork to back up any UCMJ, they threw that shit right back at the unit. If someone didn't follow up on the counseling and actually do the bottom part of the DA 4856 like we're supposed to - they kicked the packet back and wouldn't move it forward because they didn't afford the soldier the chance to correct the behavior.

  3. #23
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainmaker View Post
    Truth be told Commander, Rainmaker can't speak for the Navy Seapersons.

    However, In Debbie James' New AF, It's always the safe play for a young NCO to first contact AT LEAST a Colonel 0-6 (or better yet a Civilian Presidential appointee), before risking an EEO complaint (by telling a 'person of color' (®) , to get a hair cut and potentially hurting their feelings.

    See? It's mission critical now that E-4s and above become intimately familiar with Section 1111 of Public Law 106-398 and The National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2011 (or subsequently enacted similar legislation) before making these types of potentially controversial decisions.

    If 'Folks' (®) still have questions (after memorizing the entirety of the United states code) then they should contact their friendly Air Force Deputy Assistant Secretary for Strategic Diversity Integration for further guidence. FORWARD!!
    Definitely not that way in the Navy. I just detached from a joint (Air Force ran) command, that wasn't the way there. If the perception by NCO's is that they can't handle things themselves ... it is probably a problem with either their command (CO) or the NCO's themselves and not the policy.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

  4. #24
    Senior Member VCO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    I'm not gonna pre-clear all my decisions...maybe if it's something major, but this doesn't sound like it is, to me.

    I'll make the call and live with it either way...I think some people get too butt-hurt over being overturned at a higher level.

    It's not personal..just a difference of opinion and I'm completely fine with that. There is no way every one above me in the chain of command will make the same subjective decision the same way.

    Now, I would have to say that I already had a good working relationship with my troop and it was no big deal.
    You don't have to pre-clear your decision, however, you could gain some top cover. Talk to the Shirt and give him/her a heads-up.

  5. #25
    Senior Member VCO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    Definitely not that way in the Navy. I just detached from a joint (Air Force ran) command, that wasn't the way there. If the perception by NCO's is that they can't handle things themselves ... it is probably a problem with either their command (CO) or the NCO's themselves and not the policy.
    It isn't that way in the Air Force either. The BEST way to handle this is to address it. Just make sure you are right. Give the Shirt a head's up so he/she can handle any EO fall out (not likely).

  6. #26
    Senior Member LogDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparks82 View Post
    I'm in a joint unit - mostly Air Force. We just had Air Force EO (I think they took the "M" out of it and just call themselves EO like the Army does). This is what one of the EO people said. Next time you have someone "threaten" to go to EO, just tell them "Let me take you up there." She said people who are abusing the EO system generally drop it pretty quick when their NCO says they're going to take them.

    They told us as long as you follow regulation you don't have a problem. People can make a complaint all they want - but they said here that the majority of times people come to them it isn't even a legitimate EO violation. It's people getting offended. They said they usually get it resolved in the command and they haven't filed too many formal complaints here on the base. She said most of it here is inappropriate workplace actions and comments. Not someone actually discriminating.

    I would love for a soldier I correct to report me to EO. Please do so. They will end up looking like the biggest idiot in the world once I have the regulation with me and show them in front of everyone how they were wrong. I don't care what color or gender or anything they are. If you're fucked up, you're fucked up!!

    I agree with the statement that I think in all regulations it only goes so far and then it's up to the commander or the NCO to use their best judgment on interpreting that regulation. If her hair is unprofessional and she has ignored your repeated order to fix it, take it up the chain. But make sure there's paperwork. I don't know how AF JAG is but when I was at Riley, if you didn't have the paperwork to back up any UCMJ, they threw that shit right back at the unit. If someone didn't follow up on the counseling and actually do the bottom part of the DA 4856 like we're supposed to - they kicked the packet back and wouldn't move it forward because they didn't afford the soldier the chance to correct the behavior.
    I agree with you if a person threatens to take you to the EO to call their bluff. If you know the regs and are confident in your decision chances are they'll back down. I've had airmen and NCOs threaten to complain to the EO and I tell them "Go ahead but you better make sure you're right or you're going to look foolish and the next time you take a complaint to them they'll be skeptical of you." I've only had a couple of complaints lodged against me but they were all dismissed in my favor. The reasons they were dismissed were simple; they didn't know or agree with what the regs/rules or what the union contract (civilians) were when they made their complaint.

  7. #27
    Senior Member LogDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCO View Post
    It isn't that way in the Air Force either. The BEST way to handle this is to address it. Just make sure you are right. Give the Shirt a head's up so he/she can handle any EO fall out (not likely).
    Keep the problem at the lowest level. Use the First Sergeant for help to keep it from getting to the EO level.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Bos Mutus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCO View Post
    Just make sure you are right.
    I don't like this part. Sometimes you just have to do the best you can. If you tell people to "be sure you are right" it tends to make them not want to act.

    As long as someone is coming to an honest judgment, I think they have little to fear.

    Give the Shirt a head's up so he/she can handle any EO fall out (not likely).
    I still don't think this is an issue that requires top cover. I think the fear of EO is largely unfounded and correcting a student's hair should be a relatively minor issue. Just let her know what her appeal avenue is, if she wants...and if the commander says she is fine, then so be it. Don't lose any sleep over it.
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