Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 79

Thread: Equal Opportunity

  1. #11
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Posts
    2,964
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Here's something else I'm thinking: eventually, free college for everyone IS coming. Sure, Bernie Sanders is finished; but with him out, the inevitable has merely been postponed.

    But... not everyone wants to go to college. For those who choose not to go to college, why shouldn't they have a choice to get something else instead? Some people - probably even some (if not most) of you - believe that starting a business is a better investment than college; especially considering the fact that starting up a new business might cost about the same amount of money as a four-year degree... maybe even less, depending on the business you're starting up and which school you're comparing it too.

    Some people might believe that starter home might be a better investment. If someone owns a home, and isn't paying rent or mortgage, then they might feel that the lack of that rent or mortgage offsets (or more than offsets) the higher pay that they'd be receiving from a job that would require a college degree.

    College isn't for everyone, and those who don't want to go should be given other choices.
    Dependent on the individual, a starter home may be the better investment. For others it may be college, for others a grant to start a business.

    I do kind of fall in line with a thought that our system is really built for people to succeed, but you need the basic tools to succeed in the system. Is the best tool a thing (money, house, etc.) or is the best tool a basic education; I don't necessarily mean college but basic primary education that many low income communities lack. Giving an individual a starter home who lacks the skills (white collar, blue collar, service industry etc.) to maintain the home or a standard of living is setting them up to fail. Giving an individual a grant to start a business who lacks the ability to do the math to maintain payroll, project sales or taxes etc. is setting them up to fail.

    I agree with your line of thinking that we need to help people, we disagree on where (in time) we need to help them. I am thinking further to the left of the timeline and would focus on a solid basic education vice a lump sum of cash or a house ... both of which are (statistically shown to be) much easier to obtain with a solid educational foundation.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Posts
    3,936
    Mentioned
    32 Post(s)
    Right, but what about all of these people with four year degrees who can't find jobs? And I don't mean just people with psychology and criminal justice degrees; I mean in general. Yet, we're still talking about free four-year universities for everyone.

    What I will admit is that compulsary education (i.e., K-12) would have to change; that's a no-brainer. Currently, it's specifically designed to prepare you for college or to enter the workforce directly; depending on which route you go when choosing courses in high school. There'd need to be a new route for those who want to start businesses.

    For those who go the route of purchasing the home; we're talking about a home that costs $100K or less - in my area, you're only looking at about just over $1K a year in property taxes. Someone working full time at McDonald's can swing that. Which is far better than having to pay almost that same amount for rent every month.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

  3. #13
    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    6,984
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Here's something else I'm thinking: eventually, free college for everyone IS coming. Sure, Bernie Sanders is finished; but with him out, the inevitable has merely been postponed.

    But... not everyone wants to go to college. For those who choose not to go to college, why shouldn't they have a choice to get something else instead? Some people - probably even some (if not most) of you - believe that starting a business is a better investment than college; especially considering the fact that starting up a new business might cost about the same amount of money as a four-year degree... maybe even less, depending on the business you're starting up and which school you're comparing it too.

    Some people might believe that starter home might be a better investment. If someone owns a home, and isn't paying rent or mortgage, then they might feel that the lack of that rent or mortgage offsets (or more than offsets) the higher pay that they'd be receiving from a job that would require a college degree.

    College isn't for everyone, and those who don't want to go should be given other choices.
    I am a firm believer that college is a large scale scam and is not for everyone but I think that most people would fail if they started a business without some sort of training on how to run one.

    The first fix, as you said, would be to change the school systems...not only with improvements to safety but with choices. The academic path isn't for everyone. Money needs to be put into all the stuff the country is getting rid of...the blue collar jobs...the skills to survive without college.
    Last edited by sandsjames; 07-22-2016 at 02:12 PM.

  4. #14
    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    6,984
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    For those who go the route of purchasing the home; we're talking about a home that costs $100K or less - in my area, you're only looking at about just over $1K a year in property taxes. Someone working full time at McDonald's can swing that. Which is far better than having to pay almost that same amount for rent every month.
    I have a feeling this would kill the real estate markets, creating huge ripple effects on the economy.

    You can already see the effects around a military base, where the local market knows exactly how much people get for BAH.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Posts
    3,936
    Mentioned
    32 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    I have a feeling this would kill the real estate markets, creating huge ripple effects on the economy.

    You can already see the effects around a military base, where the local market knows exactly how much people get for BAH.
    Or maybe not. I can see builders constructing new condominium complexes and small homes in anticipation of all these 18 year olds getting $100K each at the end of every school year. That would be a good thing.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

  6. #16
    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    6,984
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Or maybe not. I can see builders constructing new condominium complexes and small homes in anticipation of all these 18 year olds getting $100K each at the end of every school year. That would be a good thing.
    Basically you'd be getting college dorms with no rules. These condos would end up being slum areas. These kids aren't going to maintain their homes.

    In an ideal world, with an assumption that everyone would make all the right moves, I could see it. Unfortunately, I think we'd end up right back where we are now.

  7. #17
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Posts
    2,964
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Right, but what about all of these people with four year degrees who can't find jobs? And I don't mean just people with psychology and criminal justice degrees; I mean in general. Yet, we're still talking about free four-year universities for everyone.
    There is an employment issue that is not necessarily reflected well in unemployment statistics. An individual with a 4 year degree who is not employable in their area of study but still employed (under-employed) isn't well reported. One of the problems with free college for everyone is that not everyone is truly qualified for higher education ... lacking the basic writing, math or critical thinking to meet a basic standard for undergrad work. Automatic free college potentially lowers the standard or puts those who are unqualified at a extreme risk to fail.

    Concur that basic education should change, I don't think it is geared exclusively for college prep ... it can be ... but there are also ways that high school is currently providing occupational education along side college prep. I don't think everyone needs a college degree to find work, it may be a requirement (tangible or employer based to filter candidates) but there is a significant amount of work in the US that does not need a degree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    What I will admit is that compulsary education (i.e., K-12) would have to change; that's a no-brainer. Currently, it's specifically designed to prepare you for college or to enter the workforce directly; depending on which route you go when choosing courses in high school. There'd need to be a new route for those who want to start businesses.
    My concern here is that a vocational prep track in high school may be too early. If a student at age 15 (10th grade) goes the vocational track, what happens when they change what they want to be doing at 19 or 20?

    I am more in favor of providing a solid basic education that can feed into multiple occupational or educational tracks, but think that at 15 most 'kids' are not ready to decide what they want to do for the rest of their life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    For those who go the route of purchasing the home; we're talking about a home that costs $100K or less - in my area, you're only looking at about just over $1K a year in property taxes. Someone working full time at McDonald's can swing that. Which is far better than having to pay almost that same amount for rent every month.
    In your area $100k would work, in my area not so much ... not for the purpose of what you are proposing. Also with home ownership is maintenance ... repairs of roofs, AC, other issues that someone working at McDonalds (what used to be a work force entry level position) likely could afford. Not hat the goal would be to provide everyone with 3000+ square feet, but to assume that home ownership is the best avenue for low income households may be a stretch. I would be more in favor of finding a way to help them transition from a minimum wage job at McDonalds to a middle class job where the ability to truly be able to own a home and afford it are realistic.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

  8. #18
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Posts
    2,964
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    In an ideal world, with an assumption that everyone would make all the right moves, I could see it. Unfortunately, I think we'd end up right back where we are now.
    This ... pretty much my concern too. We would be 'giving people fish' vice 'teaching them to fish'
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

  9. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Dayon, Ohio
    Posts
    1,244
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Rusty's idea is actually pretty close to the concept of "Basic Income" discussed here

    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...-basic-income/

    It's actually a really interesting concept. It costs a lot of money to administer federal programs like TANF, WIC, Medicaid, Section 8 housing, etc.

    In some ways it would be smarter if we just gave the money directly to the people to spend however they like. I always hear people complaining about others using their EBT card to buy steak, lobster, etc. Why the fuck does it matter? The person gets a set amount for food. If they decide to be a dummy and buy the most expensive meals they will run out of money. It isn't your job to tell people how to budget their food stamps.

  10. #20
    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    6,984
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post


    My concern here is that a vocational prep track in high school may be too early. If a student at age 15 (10th grade) goes the vocational track, what happens when they change what they want to be doing at 19 or 20?
    Then they go to college and have a skill to fall back on. Right now people go to college with nothing to fall back on. I don't see a down side.

    I am more in favor of providing a solid basic education that can feed into multiple occupational or educational tracks, but think that at 15 most 'kids' are not ready to decide what they want to do for the rest of their life.
    People in their 30s don't know what they want to do for the rest of their life. My step-son went to British schools when we were stationed in England. At age 16, they have the option of which path to take. It works out great, from our experience with it.



    In your area $100k would work, in my area not so much ... not for the purpose of what you are proposing.
    Definitely a huge issue.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •