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Thread: Instant E7 or O6?

  1. #61
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainmaker View Post
    Cyber command is another self licking ice cream cone Charlie Foxtrot that should be immediately disbanded.
    I finished two years there last year, there are definitely issues ... some on policy, some on how it is administerd; over all it functions well as a sub-unified command (focused on a particular mission) with only about 1/2 the authorized manning ... but there is always room for improvement ... especially in a mission area as new as cyber.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

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    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Here's the other thing to consider: I'm not sure about the Marine Corps, but I know that the Army and Air Force specify a minimum time in service for promotion to each pay grade. And the Navy does not. In the Navy, it's three years time in rate to make E8 and E9. What that means that, in the Navy, one could potentially become an E9 in six years.

    That's at least 14 more years of service with no incentive to perform beyond the minimum standards. As a Master Chief, no less.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

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    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    Again, I have done the job ... it is not as loosey goosey and you want to make it out. I am not so stubborn to argue the point simply to disagree ...
    Of course that's what someone with an SCI and an NDA would say.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    Actually, that wouldn't (most of the time) be a Title 10 operation / function and would be legit to be done by a contractor (or GS) ...
    Of course it would....Forced rectal feeding is an Act of Love!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Here's the other thing to consider: I'm not sure about the Marine Corps, but I know that the Army and Air Force specify a minimum time in service for promotion to each pay grade. And the Navy does not. In the Navy, it's three years time in rate to make E8 and E9. What that means that, in the Navy, one could potentially become an E9 in six years.

    That's at least 14 more years of service with no incentive to perform beyond the minimum standards. As a Master Chief, no less.
    True, on paper in the Navy a Sailor could make E9 in six or so years ... in reality I don't think it would happen. The fastest I have seen was an 12 year MCPO, made Chief in under 7, SCPO between 9 & 10. Persian Farsi linguist who excelled at the job but admittedly lacked experience and it showed a bit.

    I don't know about the Army or AF, in the USMC, the zones for E6, E7, E8 and E9 varied so while there was a defined minimum TIG to be eligible for promotion, you almost always waited longer than the minimum to be in zone. 1stSgt and MSgt (and SgtMaj and MGySgt) are the same paygrade, but two distinct ranks with different jobs. As a rule, in the Marines, if you are a combat arms type and promote to 1stSgt you are first sent to a non-combat arms unit to round out your experience (vice versa if you were a support type and for some that was a rude awakening). Usually promotion to 1stSgt was about a year faster than promotion to MSgt, in the early 90's a GySgt could opt to compete for 1stSgt, promote quicker than promoting to MSgt, do one tour as a 1stSgt and convert to MSgt and go back to his original occupational field. Too many people were doing that leaving a shortage of 1stSgt's and that policy was revoked -- now if you go 1stSgt it is permanent and you will be on the track to be a SgtMaj ... if you make SgtMaj you will be an E9 two or three years before someone who makes MGySgt in most fields.

    Officers have the same thing sorta. You are eligible for promotion as defined by minimum TIG requirements in Title 10. The individual service determines the exact promotion flow points and if you are eligible but not at the flow point you are 'Below Zone', at the flow point that year for the board you are 'In Zone' and if you fail to select at the flow point you are 'Above Zone'. If an officer commissioned as an O1 and promoted at the minimum eligibility instead of service defined flow points, they could be an O6 in about 10 years (a bit faster for the Army who promotes to O2 and O3 six months faster.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

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    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainmaker View Post
    Of course it would....Forced rectal feeding is an Act of Love!
    You have to at least buy dinner first.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    True, on paper in the Navy a Sailor could make E9 in six or so years ... in reality I don't think it would happen. The fastest I have seen was an 12 year MCPO, made Chief in under 7, SCPO between 9 & 10. Persian Farsi linguist who excelled at the job but admittedly lacked experience and it showed a bit.
    The reason that's the fastest you've seen is because none of them came in at E7.

    I don't know about the Army or AF, in the USMC, the zones for E6, E7, E8 and E9 varied so while there was a defined minimum TIG to be eligible for promotion, you almost always waited longer than the minimum to be in zone. 1stSgt and MSgt (and SgtMaj and MGySgt) are the same paygrade, but two distinct ranks with different jobs. As a rule, in the Marines, if you are a combat arms type and promote to 1stSgt you are first sent to a non-combat arms unit to round out your experience (vice versa if you were a support type and for some that was a rude awakening). Usually promotion to 1stSgt was about a year faster than promotion to MSgt, in the early 90's a GySgt could opt to compete for 1stSgt, promote quicker than promoting to MSgt, do one tour as a 1stSgt and convert to MSgt and go back to his original occupational field. Too many people were doing that leaving a shortage of 1stSgt's and that policy was revoked -- now if you go 1stSgt it is permanent and you will be on the track to be a SgtMaj ... if you make SgtMaj you will be an E9 two or three years before someone who makes MGySgt in most fields.
    I initially thought this was a bit off topic when I read it at first, but giving it more thought... everything you mentioned explains why this program might be a bit more difficult for the Army and Marine Corps.

    First Sergeants: the Navy doesn't have a real equivalent to this. Command Senior Chiefs are for commands too small to rate a Command Master Chief, not commands that are subordinate to those that rate CMDCSs.

    A First Sergeant in the Air Force is not the same thing as one in the Army and Marine Corps. First, any E7-E9 can get a lozenge in the AF; second, each squadron (equal to a battalion) only rates one.

    A 1SG in the Army and Marine Corps is the senior enlisted in a company (equal to a flight in the AF).

    My squadron has two flights, so I was surprised when I checked in with the first shirt and learned that difference, and see that there was only one. Basically... the first shirt in the AF exists solely to unfuck people with personal problems. That was new to me.

    Not sure about the USMC, but in the Army, the company is normally the lowest echelon to have its own UIC. Whereas, it's Air Force squadrons and Navy ships (both equal to battalions, if we're only counting ships commanded by O5's). In theory, this means that an Army 1SG has far more responsibility than an Air Force Flight Sergeant (typically a SMSgt) or a Navy Departmental LCPO (LCPO on a small boy).

    Also, AF Command Chiefs start at the Wing level.

    Would these cyber guys even be allowed to be First Sergeants or Command E9's in any service? That would be an even bigger issue.

    Seems like won't be as big an issue in the Navy and Air Force, because the vast majority of E8s retain their original rating/AFSC.
    Last edited by Rusty Jones; 06-23-2016 at 12:27 AM.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

  8. #68
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    The reason that's the fastest you've seen is because none of them came in at E7.
    True fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    I initially thought this was a bit off topic when I read it at first, but giving it more thought... everything you mentioned explains why this program might be a bit more difficult for the Army and Marine Corps.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Not sure about the USMC, but in the Army, the company is normally the lowest echelon to have its own UIC. Whereas, it's Air Force squadrons and Navy ships (both equal to battalions, if we're only counting ships commanded by O5's). In theory, this means that an Army 1SG has far more responsibility than an Air Force Flight Sergeant (typically a SMSgt) or a Navy Departmental LCPO (LCPO on a small boy).
    Mostly. There are small places here and there where a platoon or detachment may have a UIC because they are dislocated from their command. When I was at Camp David, we were a platoon ... we had our own UIC. In reality, we had people (numbers) that made us more like a company ... but we were 'officially' a platoon, detached from Marine Barracks Washington DC. My USN command in Georgia had 13 UICs. We had one for Submarine DIRSUP, one for Air DIRSUP, Surface DIRSUP, various other divisions and then one for folks on Shore Duty (yes, there is sea duty 200 miles from the ocean). Having different UICs made it easy for PERS to make sure an Aircrewman going to the command had all the right schools in their orders with one click vice manually entering it on the PCS orders, same for subs, surf, NECC Supports etc. All the C Schools are different so tracking readiness per division was done via separate UICs. Pain for the manpower folks, easy for OPS and Training to work with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Would these cyber guys even be allowed to be First Sergeants or Command E9's in any service? That would be an even bigger issue.
    Don't know. Right now it is a proposal from SecDef. I don't think you would see any of them go the 1stSgt route (at least in the Marines and Army) even if they came in as an E7, I don't think they would have the experience to compete ... as a MSgt (technical track vice leadership) they would likely be more competitive. Likewise, I don't think you would see an instant E7 make SCPO and be competitive for a CMDCM selection, but they could still function as a technical expert MCPO. For the officers, an instant O6 will (under current rules) not really ever be eligible for a star unless they either crank out the required JPME and Joint Qualification Requirements in record time (required for Flag per the Goldwater-Nichols Act -- even for lawyers, doctors & dentists) etc. or the law for Flag eligibility is changed.

    From what I am reading, the proposal is to allow the DoD the authority to establish a technical skills program on par with the one for medical and law. After that, it would be up to the services to establish their own programs & rules (USAF may not care if someone is an instant E6, the USMC might etc.). In the USN, making them Warrants won't work, a Warrant is an Unrestricted Line Officer, this program would only be for Restricted Line Officers (unless you change that too) -- no instant O4 SWOs etc. As I said before, I imagine whatever criteria they come up with would mean the absolute most technical savvy people are the ones that come in with the highest instant rank. From what I gather, the requirement for a degree might still be a requirement to go the Officer route vice the enlisted route.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Seems like won't be as big an issue in the Navy and Air Force, because the vast majority of E8s retain their original rating/AFSC.
    Yeah, only issue in the Navy would be the CMDCM program ... I don't see how any of these guys would compete for it unless they came in more like an E5 or 6 with time to develop the experience to compete for selection.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

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