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Thread: Gen. Odierno: We have to be careful about over-arming ourselves

  1. #11
    Senior Member Absinthe Anecdote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncaRastus View Post
    It has been awhile. Maybe the USMC did change, under it's glacially slow rate of change, also?
    I am sure Marines were doing dumb shit with their weapons in your day too.

    Seriously, are you going to try to tell me that the Marines of your era never screwed off or busted regulations and standards?
    All behold that fancy strutting peacock, the bake sale diva...

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    Quote Originally Posted by FLAPS, USAF (ret) View Post
    E1s - E4s? How about E5s and above only?

    Also, with millions of TRAINED people carrying firearms, I would expect few, if any accidental deaths. You don't hear about it for the millions of concealed carry permit holders, and you don't hear about it from cops. So why would it be any different for military, who by the way have more training than the majority of concealed permit holders?
    We get more that a few accidental deaths to firearms now, Are you really a retired member of the military?

    Conceal weapons holders mess up just like everyone else and even cops accidentally shoot themselves and others, Cops who spend far more time on weapons use and safety than most military people do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FLAPS, USAF (ret) View Post
    THAT is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. Write it again,please.
    Unless you were in one of very few AFSCs or positions in the USAF all the weapons training you received combined would be trivial, USAF standard firearms training would have to improve greatly to make it up to the level of joke.

    For example: How many weeks of weapons training was involved in your initial training and how many days a year did you train after that?

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    Administrator UncaRastus's Avatar
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    AA,

    I am sure that accidental discharges did happen while I was in. However, that never happened while I was present, at the firing ranges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FLAPS, USAF (ret) View Post
    E1s - E4s? How about E5s and above only?

    Also, with millions of TRAINED people carrying firearms, I would expect few, if any accidental deaths. You don't hear about it for the millions of concealed carry permit holders, and you don't hear about it from cops. So why would it be any different for military, who by the way have more training than the majority of concealed permit holders?
    My points Exactly Flaps. Just taking the Cops, FBI, DEA, ATF, Hoover dam guards (and other armed guards for facilities like that) and other federal agents only, there are quite a lot that carry all the time. But you don't ever hear of them having accidental discharges on the job, or people dying.
    Do people honestly believe the military are so farked up that we WILL get them?
    If so, why then do we train everyone year after year IN Gun care/carry/use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe Anecdote View Post
    I'm beginning to doubt that you were even in the military based on your reaction to that statement.

    The vast majority of troops do jobs that are in support roles and don't carry weapons on a day-to-day basis, even in the Army and Marine Corps.
    AA. I spent my last 5 years of naval service in the Seabees. EVEN OUR Yeomen and supply clerks ALL WENT TO THE RANGE, every 9-10 months to qualify/re-qualify on both the pistol and rifle.
    And knowing the deadly force rules were CONSISTENTLY drummed into us during the 2 day class portion OF that requal week.

    When i served on my 2 carriers, EVERYONE who was eligible to serve as security rover, or POOW had to get qualified on the pistol or shotgun. The only ones who didn't were the few rates/divisions, who didn't have their folk sent ONTO the general watchbill for the ship (Engineering mostly).

    Quote Originally Posted by UncaRastus View Post
    Maybe you have seen Marines firing their weapons prematurely at a firing range, AA? I have never seen that. Doing Drill Instructor at Parris Island, being on the firing range with 250 - 270 recruits doing their qualification weapons firing, for 2 years, I never once saw that happen, either as a recruit, a Marine, or as a Drill Instructor.
    In my 20 years in, i saw only around a dozen incidences of people screwing up on a range, that made me concerned. Three times it was someone who 'failed' to switch the weapon to safe after a course of fire of 5 rounds, then when it came to their next course of 5 rounds they switched it to full auto. 2 of the 3 got immediately kicked off the range, and lost their OK to carry. The other, actually went to mast, cause while 'questioning the range masters orders, they struck OUT at the RM.
    1 was a female of around 5ft 4 and maybe 120lb wet, qualing on the shotgun. She just did NOT have the grip strength to properly hold the shotgun, and when she discharged it from her hip, it flew up. 2 other small people (a 2nd female, barely 5ft, and a 5ft 5 dude, skinny as heck) had the recoil toss them back and also causing them to lose grip on the gun.

    4 of the incidents cause they got hot brass down their shirt, and cause they were squirming around, they 'flagged' other people.

    So 12 in 20 years, out of well over 10+ thousand i have been at the range with is NO where near enough of an issue to make me worry.

    Quote Originally Posted by waveshaper2 View Post
    That's not how the USAF does it with the M9 9mm pistol. SOP is (or was) round in the camber, safety catch in the fire position, and then the weapon is secured in the holster.
    Same in the Navy. Every time we were armed with the 9mm (or old colt M1911 .45) we carried it racked with 1 in the tube. Only the M4/16 or the shotgun did we carry in condition 3 (rounds in the mag, mag inserted chamber empty).

    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe Anecdote View Post
    I don't know why anyone would want to give a recruiter a fucking rifle to carry when they are doing office work.
    Who ever said anything about arming them with a rifle. I JUST want them armed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
    DOH!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeKerriii View Post
    We get more that a few accidental deaths to firearms now, Are you really a retired member of the military?

    Conceal weapons holders mess up just like everyone else and even cops accidentally shoot themselves and others, Cops who spend far more time on weapons use and safety than most military people do.
    Do you by chance have #s to back up that claim?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeKerriii View Post
    For example: How many weeks of weapons training was involved in your initial training and how many days a year did you train after that?
    Not sure how the AF does it but the Navy has it where once a year at least (normally done every 9 months or so) we do a full week of re-qual. 2 days in class followed by a written test (needing 80% to pass), followed by 3 days on the range. Day one of range time is always just to get you 'refamiliar' with firing the weapon. Day 2 and 3 (If needed), were to actually requalify.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
    Well that didn't take to long.
    Excerpt; A U.S. Navy recruiter in Georgia accidentally shot himself in the leg with his own handgun Friday at a local recruiting office, police said.

    The accident in Gainesville, Georgia, north of Atlanta, took place a day after four Marines were killed and three other people injured in attacks at two military facilities in Chattanooga, Tennessee.

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    Administrator UncaRastus's Avatar
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    And here I thought that no one doing recruiting duty was allowed to carry a weapon. He should have been trained stringently on the weapon. Also, he should not have had a round in the chamber.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Absinthe Anecdote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLAPS, USAF (ret) View Post
    E1s - E4s? How about E5s and above only?

    Also, with millions of TRAINED people carrying firearms, I would expect few, if any accidental deaths. You don't hear about it for the millions of concealed carry permit holders, and you don't hear about it from cops. So why would it be any different for military, who by the way have more training than the majority of concealed permit holders?
    Bullshit in the first degree!

    http://www.policemag.com/list/tag/ac...ischarges.aspx

    As for your millions of concealed permit holders who never do anything dumb with their weapons, I'm not buying that either.

    http://www.citylab.com/crime/2014/09...hrooms/380327/

    And before you clowns start accusing me of being anti-2nd Ammendment, that is not the case with me.

    I think we should be able to own and carry firearms in certain situations.

    However, I do acknowledge there are consequences in allowing people to carry firearms, negligent discharges are one of them.

    Let's be intellectually honest about it, people screw up.

    In my four years as a Air Force cop, I saw enough dumb shit with weapons to make me be wary of anyone carrying a firearm.

    When I was an Intel troop and deployed a few times with DIA civilians and troops from all four branches I saw even more scary shit.

    Those god damned shoulder holsters are scary as hell on some people. If someone fucks up removing their weapon from a shoulder holster and you are standing behind them, you have a good chance of taking a bullet to the chest or head.
    Last edited by Absinthe Anecdote; 07-19-2015 at 07:57 PM.
    All behold that fancy strutting peacock, the bake sale diva...

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    Quote Originally Posted by UncaRastus View Post
    AA,

    I am sure that accidental discharges did happen while I was in. However, that never happened while I was present, at the firing ranges.
    That was with Marines, and you were lucky. But imagine that with Air Force and Navy types who, on a relative basis, have almost no training.

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