Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 41

Thread: Maternity leave to get tripled for Navy and Marines.

  1. #11
    Senior Member USN - Retired's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Ewa Beach, Hawaii
    Posts
    702
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    Yeah, it may be a burden on the shore establishment but it can be mitigated.
    Translation: People who choose not to have children will be expected to do extra work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    I think a mother's bonding is more essential (breastfeeding, caregiving etc.) and mothers have a stronger psychological bond having carried the child to term; so I think longer for a maternity leave than paternity leave is appropriate. Add into all of that the physical aspects associated with childbirth and I think it is a good thing. Having worked with females who had recently given birth, each is different... some are ready to come back to work full speed once their convalescent leave is over, others take longer. Having never squeezed something the size of a watermelon out of hole the size of a lemon ... I will defer on calling them non-hackers.
    Benevolent sexism. Gender stereotyping.

    She can use a breast pump and put the milk in the refrigerator. The daddy can then feed the kid.

    If the female sailor is married to a civilian man who is a stay-at-home father/parent, does that female sailor still need 18 weeks of maternity leave?

    6 weeks of maternity leave has been working fine. If a female sailor wants more than 6 weeks of maternity leave, then anything in excess of that 6 weeks should be either (1) unpaid leave or (2) charged as regular leave. If 6 weeks of maternity leave isn't enough, then 18 weeks of maternity leave will not really make any difference.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    I think a mother's bonding is more essential (breastfeeding, caregiving etc.) and mothers have a stronger psychological bond having carried the child to term; so
    Even if the father is the stay-at-home parent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    Why should she,
    To keep the fitrep/eval system honest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    , there are 52 weeks in a reporting period. .
    18 weeks (126 days) is a long time to be away from work. A woman who will use the 18 weeks of maternity leave should receive a close-out fitrep/eval when she starts maternity leave and a "Not observed" fitrep/eval during the 18 weeks of maternity leave. 18 weeks of maternity leave is more than a third of an annual reporting cycle. That is a long time for the command to pretend that they are observing her work performance when they really are not.
    As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others

  2. #12
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Posts
    2,973
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    Translation: People who choose not to have children will be expected to do extra work.
    In some cases that will likely be the case. Good leadership will (should be able to) see this coming and be able to dilute her duties so the impact isn't that big. I am sure there will be some workcenter somewhere that has 4 or 5 etc. pregnant females that will get slammed.

    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    Benevolent sexism. Gender stereotyping.

    She can use a breast pump and put the milk in the refrigerator. The daddy can then feed the kid.
    She could, I think we can be a better organization than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    If the female sailor is married to a civilian man who is a stay-at-home father/parent, does that female sailor still need 18 weeks of maternity leave?
    Maybe, maybe not ... each individual is ... individual. I don't think it should be tied to if or who they are married to.

    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    6 weeks of maternity leave has been working fine. If a female sailor wants more than 6 weeks of maternity leave, then anything in excess of that 6 weeks should be either (1) unpaid leave or (2) charged as regular leave. If 6 weeks of maternity leave isn't enough, then 18 weeks of maternity leave will not really make any difference.
    6 weeks of maternity leave has been working fine ... for those who have chosen to stay. For those who have made it work "Bravo Zulu" to them, at the same we have a huge drop off of females in the middle and senior ranks (officer & enlisted) & the #1 reason women leave the Navy & Marine Corps is the tug of war between family (and their role in child rearing) and career. So, if we want to retain we need to find a way to fight the perception that the choice is family or job. I also think we will retain more 'quality' females who could find edifying careers elsewhere by having a bit more flexibility to the period immediately following pregnancy.

    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    Even if the father is the stay-at-home parent?
    What if she isn't married, what if she is married to a guy who works from home, what if ... Shouldn't matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    To keep the fitrep/eval system honest.

    18 weeks (126 days) is a long time to be away from work. A woman who will use the 18 weeks of maternity leave should receive a close-out fitrep/eval when she starts maternity leave and a "Not observed" fitrep/eval during the 18 weeks of maternity leave. 18 weeks of maternity leave is more than a third of an annual reporting cycle. That is a long time for the command to pretend that they are observing her work performance when they really are not.
    First, he 18 weeks doesn't have to be taken in one block. I don't see it as dishonest based on how our evals / fitreps currently work. Also, depending on the timing of pregnancy and promotion a series of NOB's could inadvertently harm advancement (go back to trying to retain people and not make them feel that having a family is at odds with career.) I would be more in line to agree once we go past 1/2 of the reporting period. I agree, that is a long time but we don't do that for anyone other types of medical issues with long periods of recovery ... why make pregnancy different?
    Last edited by Mjölnir; 07-08-2015 at 10:31 PM.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

  3. #13
    Senior Member USN - Retired's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Ewa Beach, Hawaii
    Posts
    702
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    Also, the new policy only allows it to be taken in the first year after birth, when a female would be prohibited from sea duty anyway ... so no impact on ship's manning.
    That statement doesn't make any sense. Are you saying that female sailors never get pregnant when they are on sea duty? If a female sailor got pregnant shortly after reporting to a ship for sea duty, then there would be an impact on the manning of the ship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    at the same we have a huge drop off of females in the middle and senior ranks (officer & enlisted) & the #1 reason women leave the Navy & Marine Corps is the tug of war between family (and their role in child rearing) and career.
    That tug of war will still exist after the 18 weeks of maternity leave. The extra maternity leave doesn't solve the real problem: Who takes care of the kid when mommy is out at sea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    So, if we want to retain we need to find a way to fight the perception that the choice is family or job. I also think we will retain more 'quality' females who could find edifying careers elsewhere by having a bit more flexibility to the period immediately following pregnancy.
    We can fight the "perception", but the choice is still there. If a Sailor wants to get ahead in the Navy, then that Sailor must put his/her Navy career first and his/her family life second. That is not a politically correct statement, but it is reality. Serving in the Navy entails frequent separation from the family for extended periods of time.

    And the female sailors can still can still go find "edifying careers elsewhere" even after they take the 18 weeks of maternity leave.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    First, he 18 weeks doesn't have to be taken in one block.
    In most cases, it probably will be taken in one block.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    I agree, that is a long time but we don't do that for anyone other types of medical issues with long periods of recovery
    That statement of yours is misleading. If a sailor is gone from a command for a long period of time (i.e. many months), a good command will submit a "not observed" fitrep/eval on the sailor. Trying to give an observed fitrep/eval to a sailor who has been gone for many months is not fair to anyone, and it does not honestly document the sailor's performance.
    As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others

  4. #14
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Posts
    2,973
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    That statement doesn't make any sense. Are you saying that female sailors never get pregnant when they are on sea duty? If a female sailor got pregnant shortly after reporting to a ship for sea duty, then there would be an impact on the manning of the ship.
    Female sailors get pregnant on sea duty and are then detached, removed from the EDVR and replaced. If they are in a critical NEC that billet goes into BUPERS as a hot fill (I got a replacement Sailor onboard in 18 days after detaching a pregnant female.) Once a female is detached and goes to a shore station, she is prohibited from going back to to sea duty (to go back into the normal sea-shore rotation) for 1 year from the birth of the child (which coincides with the one year to take the 18 weeks.)



    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    That tug of war will still exist after the 18 weeks of maternity leave. The extra maternity leave doesn't solve the real problem: Who takes care of the kid when mommy is out at sea?
    Yes, the tug of war will exist, this is a measure to make it less of a burden.

    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    We can fight the "perception", but the choice is still there. If a Sailor wants to get ahead in the Navy, then that Sailor must put his/her Navy career first and his/her family life second. That is not a politically correct statement, but it is reality. Serving in the Navy entails frequent separation from the family for extended periods of time.
    I disagree. I have put my wife and family first but yes, met the obligations of my career too (18 deployments so far -- 14 since being married.) I went from E1-E7 and O1-O4 and I have said it to many of my bosses -- if you want me to choose between my family and my career, my family will win every time. And it hasn't harmed me a bit. Honestly, one former CO who is still a mentor and now a RADM recently told me he finds the honesty refreshing. I consistently have gotten break out FITREPs from those same bosses, promoted to LCDR early, currently am an XO and have screened for command ... sounds like I am doing alright to me -- I will be honest, I don't see me ever being an Admiral ... I don't know any particulars of your career but it is entirely possible to put your family ahead of your career and succeed. I would honestly rather have retired as an E7 with my wife than retire as an O4 or O5 and not have her.

    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    And the female sailors can still can still go find "edifying careers elsewhere" even after they take the 18 weeks of maternity leave.
    Yes, they can. This is about the organization making it more palatable to stay. Some will still go, I think this is designed to influence some who are 'on the fence' to stay.

    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    In most cases, it probably will be taken in one block.
    Agreed. But it doesn't have to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    That statement of yours is misleading. If a sailor is gone from a command for a long period of time (i.e. many months), a good command will submit a "not observed" fitrep/eval on the sailor. Trying to give an observed fitrep/eval to a sailor who has been gone for many months is not fair to anyone, and it does not honestly document the sailor's performance.
    Incorrect, a command cannot ... CANNOT give a NOB to a Sailor who has been in the command more than 90 days if ANY fair and meaningful evaluation can be made. If they do it will be returned from PERS for the Reporting Senior to correct (personal experience with this.) If you have a Sailor who is still attached to the command but undergoing extensive medical treatment (from surgery, cancer treatment, serious injury etc.) the command is still required to evaluate their performance in their assigned duties.

    I can see where some people will whine if a Sailor gets an EP who has been gone for 18 weeks; but if they deserve it, they deserve it. It is easier to bitch about why someone else got something they didn't deserve than to exercise a bit of brutally honest self reflection.
    Last edited by Mjölnir; 07-09-2015 at 12:50 AM.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

  5. #15
    Senior Member USN - Retired's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Ewa Beach, Hawaii
    Posts
    702
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    Female sailors get pregnant on sea duty and are then detached, removed from the EDVR and replaced. If they are in a critical NEC that billet goes into BUPERS as a hot fill (I got a replacement Sailor onboard in 18 days after detaching a pregnant female.) Once a female is detached and goes to a shore station, she is prohibited from going back to to sea duty (to go back into the normal sea-shore rotation) for 1 year from the birth of the child (which coincides with the one year to take the 18 weeks.)
    So,... there is an impact on manning

    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    Incorrect, a command cannot ... CANNOT give a NOB to a Sailor who has been in the command more than 90 days if ANY fair and meaningful evaluation can be made. If they do it will be returned from PERS for the Reporting Senior to correct (personal experience with this.) If you have a Sailor who is still attached to the command but undergoing extensive medical treatment (from surgery, cancer treatment, serious injury etc.) the command is still required to evaluate their performance in their assigned duties.
    .
    You are again trying to mislead us...

    ---------------------

    BUPERS INSTRUCTION 1610.10C

    6-2. Uses of Not Observed Reports. NOB reports are used to
    fulfill reporting requirements when graded reports are
    inappropriate. They may be submitted for short periods of duty
    or TEMDU (no more than 3 months) that is purely for
    administrative or training purposes, academic DUINS, duties that
    require a member's complete independence from any appearance of
    command influence, and Regular report periods that have been
    fully evaluated in a Concurrent or Operational Commander report.
    Also, under unique circumstances, a reporting senior can submit
    a NOB report for any period if the reporting senior does not
    feel that there has been enough observation to grade with
    confidence,
    i.e., member has been onboard for 6 months but
    member was TEMADD for a majority of the reporting period, etc.
    Justification and explanation must be provided in the Comments
    field. Observed reports are desired if any fair and meaningful
    evaluation or recommendation can be made.

    http://www.public.navy.mil/ia/Docume...NST161010C.pdf
    ------------------------

    I have been retired from the Navy for over 9 years, and I know 1610.10C better than you do. You should be embarrassed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    If you have a Sailor who is still attached to the command but undergoing extensive medical treatment (from surgery, cancer treatment, serious injury etc.) the command is still required to evaluate their performance in their assigned duties.
    .
    A sailor on maternity leave doesn't have any duties so no fair and meaningful evaluation can be made of her performance while she is on maternity leave.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    I disagree. I have put my wife and family first but yes, met the obligations of my career too (18 deployments so far -- 14 since being married.) .
    If you have gone on 14 deployments since you have been married, then you didn't put your family life first. There is no way that you could have put your family life first. I understand that you think that you did, but you didn't. You probably also think that you understand 1610.10C, but you obviously don't.

    Let's get back on point: The extra maternity leave doesn't solve the real problem. Eventually, mommy will have to go back out to sea. Who will take care of the kid when mommy is out at sea? That's the real problem.
    As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others

  6. #16
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Posts
    2,973
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    So,... there is an impact on manning

    You are again trying to mislead us...
    It isn't misleading but looking at how the new policy is actually worded. The new 18 week policy will not impact manning, the Sailor will have already been removed from the EDVR since having learned she was pregnant. Quite some time will have passed to get a replacement -- provided the chain of command is doing their jobs correctly. Does pregnancy impact manning, yes ... this new policy is only effective for the year that the Sailor is already barred from sea duty.

    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    ---------------------

    BUPERS INSTRUCTION 1610.10C

    6-2. Uses of Not Observed Reports. NOB reports are used to
    fulfill reporting requirements when graded reports are
    inappropriate. They may be submitted for short periods of duty
    or TEMDU (no more than 3 months) that is purely for
    administrative or training purposes, academic DUINS, duties that
    require a member's complete independence from any appearance of
    command influence, and Regular report periods that have been
    fully evaluated in a Concurrent or Operational Commander report.
    Also, under unique circumstances, a reporting senior can submit
    a NOB report for any period if the reporting senior does not
    feel that there has been enough observation to grade with
    confidence,
    i.e., member has been onboard for 6 months but
    member was TEMADD for a majority of the reporting period, etc.
    Justification and explanation must be provided in the Comments
    field. Observed reports are desired if any fair and meaningful
    evaluation or recommendation can be made.

    http://www.public.navy.mil/ia/Docume...NST161010C.pdf
    ------------------------

    I have been retired from the Navy for over 9 years, and I know 1610.10C better than you do. You should be embarrassed.
    We are now using 1610.10D ... keep going down past the paragraph you quoted (it was there in version C too though):

    b. Exception. Under unique circumstances, a reporting
    senior can submit a NOB report for any period if the reporting
    senior does not feel that there has been enough observation to
    grade with confidence, i.e., member has been onboard for 6
    months but member was TEMADD for a majority of the reporting
    period, etc. Justification and explanation must be provided in
    the Comments field. Observed reports are desired if any fair
    and meaningful evaluation or recommendation can be made.
    I can tell you that a command that tries to submit a NOB report when a Sailor has been attached to the command for 2/3 of the reporting period will have the report rejected -- two have come back to my command in the last 2 months for Sailors who got NOBs from a detachment OIC (A Master Chief who didn't understand that he couldn't do that) because they were TAD for 120 days out of 365. Now, the stars may align where the due to a change of reporting senior etc. a case could be made to submit a NOB report -- but (based on my conversations with PERS 32) if the Sailor has been part of the command for a majority (as stated in the instruction) of the period (in an annual report 183 days) they will be written a report and if you submit a NOB when they have been with the command and the reporting senior a majority of the period, PERS 32 will return the report.

    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    A sailor on maternity leave doesn't have any duties so no fair and meaningful evaluation can be made of her performance while she is on maternity leave.
    No, the report will cover the other approx 38 weeks of the reporting period. Under the current system, the Sailor has to be attached to a UIC somewhere. They have some job, you report on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    If you have gone on 14 deployments since you have been married, then you didn't put your family life first. There is no way that you could have put your family life first. I understand that you think that you did, but you didn't. You probably also think that you understand 1610.10C, but you obviously don't.
    1. Yes, my family comes first, always has. There are things I have to do for my job and my wife understands that but it isn't easy. But, I have also made very conscious decisions about family and career.

    2. I actually do understand the 1610.10C & D. You pulled out one paragraph without looking at the follow on paragraphs. Also, I have been a RS for over 50 Sailors and have never had any of my evals returned by PERS while having to correct reports that others have written to keep a Sailor from getting screwed. How many evals/reports were you an RS for before you retired?

    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    Let's get back on point: The extra maternity leave doesn't solve the real problem. Eventually, mommy will have to go back out to sea. Who will take care of the kid when mommy is out at sea? That's the real problem.
    Whoever is specified in the Family Care Plan which is required by Navy policy. It is part of the life, that is a simple fact. This whole policy is not designed to make military life 100% like a civilian career but to make it better. Sure, some people are going to look at it like 18 weeks of vacation, and some will really need it. Some would stay in the Navy / Marine Corps even if we didn't do this, some wouldn't. We could say "suck it up buttercup" and lose quality people but if this policy will retain a few that are on the fence then so be it. I get that you don't like it because you look at it like 18 weeks of vacation.
    Last edited by Mjölnir; 07-09-2015 at 02:01 AM.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

  7. #17
    Senior Member USN - Retired's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Ewa Beach, Hawaii
    Posts
    702
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    Whoever is specified in the Family Care Plan which is required by Navy policy.
    If there is a person listed on that family care plan who can really take care of the kid, then that person should assume the role of primary caregiver of that kid 6 weeks after the birth of the kid (perhaps even sooner). There is no need to wait until 18 weeks after the birth of the kid. Of course, you believe in all that "tender years" crap, and you think that mommy should stay home and bond with her little baby. I suspect that many mommies would like to stay home and bond with their little babies. That's all very nice, but, there's a problem (a big problem). Mommy signed an enlistment contract with the US Navy. Mommy made a commitment to the US Navy, and she needs to get back to work as soon as possible. If the Doctor says that she is medically fit to return to duty 6 weeks after giving birth, then she should be a team player and go back to work. The Navy holds male sailors to high standards , but, sadly, the Navy leaders don't have the moral courage to hold female sailors to those same high standards. Extending the maternity leave out to 18 weeks is a prime example of "benevolent sexism", and, in the long run, it will hurt women far more than it will help them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    We could say "suck it up buttercup" and lose quality people but if this policy will retain a few that are on the fence then so be it.
    If 6 weeks of maternity leave is not good enough for a woman, then 18 weeks of maternity leave probably won't be enough either and the woman should just take a pregnancy discharge. "Buttercup" signed an enlistment contract, and she needs to get back to work. Best case scenario, extending the maternity leave to 18 weeks will help the Navy retain some mediocre performers. A top performing female sailor will take her enlistment contract seriously and will be ready to return to her commitment to the Navy and her shipmates after 6 weeks of maternity leave.
    As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others

  8. #18
    Senior Member USN - Retired's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Ewa Beach, Hawaii
    Posts
    702
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    The Navy provides special privileges to those who choose to breed. Male sailors will get a few days of paid paternity leave (at the command's discretion). Female sailors will get many weeks of paid maternity leave. Additionally, the fitreps/evals of female sailors will be written in a manner to hide the fact that they spent many months on paid maternity leave. Furthermore, there are some financial incentives to those who choose to breed (e.g. housing allowance). And let's not forget, those who choose to not breed will be expected to carry the load of those sailors who are on maternity leave and paternity leave.

    There are no special privileges for those sailors who choose to remain childfree even though the sailor who is childfree will cost the Navy considerably less than a sailor with kids (housing, medical care for the kids, paid maternity leave, etc).

    Why shouldn't there be some resentment by those who choose to not breed.
    As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others

  9. #19
    Senior Member Absinthe Anecdote's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Baltimore
    Posts
    3,669
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    The Navy provides special privileges to those who choose to breed. Male sailors will get a few days of paid paternity leave (at the command's discretion). Female sailors will get many weeks of paid maternity leave. Additionally, the fitreps/evals of female sailors will be written in a manner to hide the fact that they spent many months on paid maternity leave. Furthermore, there are some financial incentives to those who choose to breed (e.g. housing allowance). And let's not forget, those who choose to not breed will be expected to carry the load of those sailors who are on maternity leave and paternity leave.

    There are no special privileges for those sailors who choose to remain childfree even though the sailor who is childfree will cost the Navy considerably less than a sailor with kids (housing, medical care for the kids, paid maternity leave, etc).

    Why shouldn't there be some resentment by those who choose to not breed.
    Weren't you supporting polygamists a few days ago? A polygamist would be a super-breeder if you ask me.

    Oh, that's right! You said you were trolling, guess that s what you are doing now.
    All behold that fancy strutting peacock, the bake sale diva...

  10. #20
    Senior Member USN - Retired's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Ewa Beach, Hawaii
    Posts
    702
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe Anecdote View Post
    Oh, that's right! You said you were trolling, guess that s what you are doing now.
    That doesn't mean that my points are not valid.
    As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •