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Thread: Pentagon looks at changes for 'up-or-out' rules

  1. #11
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe Anecdote View Post
    No kidding, the Air Force officer corps is firmly against the warrant program, at least the old guard is.

    I think that attitude originated with pilots and whenever the idea came up, cold water was tossed on it.

    Anytime I was present at a Q&A session with CMSAF or a Flag-level officer I would ask for their views about a warrant officer program.

    All of them sang the same tune, "we don't need a warrant officer program because our NCO corps is so strong."
    I don't know the 'why' ... but it was just very clear they (O6 - O8 level folks I was talking to) were not interested -- speaking on behalf of the USAF.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Absinthe Anecdote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    I don't know the 'why' ... but it was just very clear they (O6 - O8 level folks I was talking to) were not interested -- speaking on behalf of the USAF.
    I never got what I considered a straight answer, or even a measured response.

    I can only speculate that rated officers (pilots) were being protective of their "seat time" or their status. I'm guessing they don't want to have warrant officers in the cockpit.

    We've talked about this on the forum before, and I've read some interviews of Air Force leadership responding to such a question, but it remains unclear to me why a warrant officer program is a no-go for the Air Force.
    All behold that fancy strutting peacock, the bake sale diva...

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    Senior Member efmbman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    As it is now, all military personnel are brought in at basically entry-level and trained/grown within...not many companies do that.
    Not all... but I know what you mean. Health care professionals and lawyers come to mind as far as direct commissioning goes. The only enlisted specialties I know of that can enter the Army at a higher rank are band members. Coincidentally, band members are often exempt from HYT in the Army. The rub is that in the military experience is often equated to rank... and with rank comes authority (in some cases command authority). That is not something (I hope) the military is willing to hand out based on experience in the civilian sector.

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    Senior Member Bos Mutus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by efmbman View Post
    Not all... but I know what you mean. Health care professionals and lawyers come to mind as far as direct commissioning goes.
    Direct commission, yeah...but they still start out as Captains, right? I mean, do we bring in a Surgeon with 20 years experience directly as a Colonel? Or an experienced judge/lawyer the same?

    The only enlisted specialties I know of that can enter the Army at a higher rank are band members. Coincidentally, band members are often exempt from HYT in the Army.
    Yeah...so it can be done! I think they do this so that they can get real professional musicians for the Service Band...so, why not do it with real technical specialties?

    The rub is that in the military experience is often equated to rank... and with rank comes authority (in some cases command authority). That is not something (I hope) the military is willing to hand out based on experience in the civilian sector.

    Valid point.
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    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    Direct commission, yeah...but they still start out as Captains, right? I mean, do we bring in a Surgeon with 20 years experience directly as a Colonel? Or an experienced judge/lawyer the same?
    The highest I have seen is an anesthesiologist that came in as an O5 -- had about 25 years experience.

    The dentist on my last MEU was a direct commission O4. He had been a dentist in private practice 20-some years.
    Last edited by Mjölnir; 06-12-2015 at 02:32 PM.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

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    Senior Member Bos Mutus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    The highest I have seen is an anesthesiologist that came in as an O5.
    Interesting...I didn't realize they did that.
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    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    Interesting...I didn't realize they did that.
    I have only seen medical fields do it beyond O3.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

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    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    Interesting...I didn't realize they did that.
    The age limit for commissioning is 35, but there are waivers for certain fields depending on the specialty.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    Direct commission, yeah...but they still start out as Captains, right? I mean, do we bring in a Surgeon with 20 years experience directly as a Colonel?
    Lt. Col, actually

    Months of paperwork came to fruition in late June when Stewart accepted a commission as a lieutenant colonel in the Army Medical Corps. He said he is spending the remaining weeks of summer "continuing my surgical practice" and tying up loose ends in Cleveland.
    http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/07/19....cardiac.army/

    In your defense, that is the highest direct commission I have ever heard of. Usually, medical personnel are direct commissioned as Captains and mostly it that is dentists. The highest direct commission I personally saw was an 0-4. I remember talking to her about it. They have some formula to determine what each year of experience is worth. I also think it has something to do with commission age.

  10. #20
    Senior Member efmbman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    The age limit for commissioning is 35, but there are waivers for certain fields depending on the specialty.
    Speaking for the Army medical recruiting (I did it for 6 years) anything and everything can be waived. Yes, even malpractice.

    The oddest part of it all was commissioning a O6 with no years time in grade. That's where the regs and laws come in. The selection board does the determination of grade at entry to include what is called constructive credit. That get the newly minted officer into a year group for promotion consideration. As far as I know, the constructive credit rules apply to all services as well as the rules for advanced rank at entry. Otherwise, each branch would be competing for docs and dentists. Can't have that.

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