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Thread: Idiots

  1. #21
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJMAC77SP View Post
    I suppose we would be ok if he didn't go into hiding and got killed ?

    That is what a Marine does? Allowing yourself to be killed to further make your point that Islam (as practiced by some) is a violent religion is the correct course of action?

    I think this rally is ill-conceived and obviously designed to incite anger and more but I can't agree with positions that make value judgments about Jon Ritzheimer because he chooses to go into hiding after receiving death threats.
    The value judgements aren't because he's going into hiding. The value judgements are because either he didn't know, or he's pretending to not have known, that what he didn't wouldn't lead to this type of retaliation.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
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  2. #22
    Senior Member TJMAC77SP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    The value judgements aren't because he's going into hiding. The value judgements are because either he didn't know, or he's pretending to not have known, that what he didn't wouldn't lead to this type of retaliation.
    Not really.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeKerriii View Post
    ROTFLAMO, some big tough Marine, afraid of twitter. If you won't stand for what you say don't ****** say it
    I am not sure how you are reaching the conclusion that he didn't know or is pretending not to have known the consequences. I suppose when he first announced the rally he could have said ".........I am doing this even though I know I will get death threats and be forced into hiding...."


    But that really isn't a realistic scenario.
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  3. #23
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    As an update, the man who organized this has gone into hiding as he's been receiving death threats. He's now bitching about "tyranny" in America.
    I saw him on the news earlier. He was stating that there had been threats against him, and his family.

    Now, he could have / should have anticipated that. He should have taken that into account before organizing his 'protest.' He is falling into the "right to be an idiot / misinformed" category. He can certainly exercise his free speech, if someone killed him they would be a criminal & he would be dead ... I hope it doesn't happen, nor that his family would be harmed ... but this should have been part of his decision making matrix long before he got to the execution phase of his plan.

    I kind of equate the situation to someone poking / antagonizing a dog. Whether the dog is a pit bull or a labrador ... at some point, however mild mannered the dog is, it is likely to growl, then maybe bark ... and eventually bite. Now ... do we blame the dog for doing what it does -- no ... but it is a dog; people are not dogs and they have the choice to break the law or not. Most Muslims will not resort to violence -- extremists likely will ... you could say the same about Christians. We have the right to be antagonistic, but unfortunately at some point even when someone is being an ass and 'asking' for something to happen to them (whether a punch to the face or such) when the antagonized get violent they are the criminal.

    Stepping back, I looked around a little bit and outside of the rally in TX with the two shootings and this 'protest' in AZ, it seems their theme is just "free speech to bash (Islam) ... which they can do ... but I don't much get the point. The woman who organized the TX event (Pamela Gellar) is an antagonizer, but has the benefit of a lot of monetary supporters and she has paid security ... this guy in AZ doesn't ... yet. I am sure there will be a bunch of folks raising money for him -- maybe that is his long term intent**.

    **This was the tactic used by the Westboro Baptist Church in the mid 90's that garnered them a lot of cash in lawsuit settlements.

    -Go somewhere and antagonize people
    -Get assaulted or get ushered off by the police
    -Sue people / organizations in civil court for assault or sue the police department for infringing on their 1st amendment rights.
    -Win and collect cash.

    One thing I read a couple years ago estimated they got about $500,000 over a few years of doing this.
    Last edited by Mjölnir; 05-31-2015 at 11:55 PM.
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Look at it this way: what if a group of Muslims decided to grab a bunch of guns and protest outside of a church in that same city during Sunday service? Then what? If a Muslim decided to announce this days in advance, I would offer a bet right here on MTF... maybe a small $100 or $200 bet... that they would be met with armed Christian counter protesters, and that there would be some bloodshed.

    I'm pretty sure he knows how he'd react to armed Muslims protesting outside of his church. Why should he expect them to behave differently by doing the same outside of a mosque?

    These guns rights and open carry laws and "people being offended is not my problem" mindsets aside... guns are weapons, and deadly ones at that. People are afraid when they see this, and rightfully so. You don't do some shit like this, and expect people to sit there and take it.

    What he's dealing with are consequences that he was fully aware of, or should have been.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
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    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Look at it this way: what if a group of Muslims decided to grab a bunch of guns and protest outside of a church in that same city during Sunday service? Then what? If a Muslim decided to announce this days in advance, I would offer a bet right here on MTF... maybe a small $100 or $200 bet... that they would be met with armed Christian counter protesters, and that there would be some bloodshed.
    I wouldn't 'expect' there to be violence*, but I could see it as a contingency and in that scenario I would recommend people plan accordingly.

    *I don't 'expect' people to break the law, but ... I know it happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    I'm pretty sure he knows how he'd react to armed Muslims protesting outside of his church. Why should he expect them to behave differently by doing the same outside of a mosque?
    No argument

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    These guns rights and open carry laws and "people being offended is not my problem" mindsets aside... guns are weapons, and deadly ones at that. People are afraid when they see this, and rightfully so. You don't do some shit like this, and expect people to sit there and take it.

    What he's dealing with are consequences that he was fully aware of, or should have been.
    Agreed on he should have been (maybe he was and this is theater) ready to deal with those consequences.

    At the same time, the mentality that "I have been provoked and have to respond in kind or more forcefully" is a stupid mindset as well. 'One-upsmanship' accomplishes nothing, yeah ... people can say "See that, I didn't take his shit." ... but it likely gets you on the wrong side of the law as well ... even if the other person was 'asking for it.'
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    I wouldn't 'expect' there to be violence*, but I could see it as a contingency and in that scenario I would recommend people plan accordingly.

    *I don't 'expect' people to break the law, but ... I know it happens.



    No argument



    Agreed on he should have been (maybe he was and this is theater) ready to deal with those consequences.

    At the same time, the mentality that "I have been provoked and have to respond in kind or more forcefully" is a stupid mindset as well. 'One-upsmanship' accomplishes nothing, yeah ... people can say "See that, I didn't take his shit." ... but it likely gets you on the wrong side of the law as well ... even if the other person was 'asking for it.'
    Well, if I walk into a bar with a few motorcycles parked outside and I see one of the bikers talking to his girlfriend... I could always sit in the empty stool next to the girlfriend and try to pick her up right in front him. I'm not breaking the law by doing that. However, before I decide to do that... maybe I need to consider the probability that the "law" is going to be the least of my worries.

    I'm not trying to justify any death threats being made. However... that's how the man should have thought before organizing the armed protest.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

  7. #27
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Well, if I walk into a bar with a few motorcycles parked outside and I see one of the bikers talking to his girlfriend... I could always sit in the empty stool next to the girlfriend and try to pick her up right in front him. I'm not breaking the law by doing that. However, before I decide to do that... maybe I need to consider the probability that the "law" is going to be the least of my worries.

    I'm not trying to justify any death threats being made. However... that's how the man should have thought before organizing the armed protest.
    The amazing thing about people who go out looking for a confrontation is that they usually find one.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    I saw him on the news earlier. He was stating that there had been threats against him, and his family.

    Now, he could have / should have anticipated that. He should have taken that into account before organizing his 'protest.' He is falling into the "right to be an idiot / misinformed" category. He can certainly exercise his free speech, if someone killed him they would be a criminal & he would be dead ... I hope it doesn't happen, nor that his family would be harmed ... but this should have been part of his decision making matrix long before he got to the execution phase of his plan.
    So one should only organize a protest and stand up for one's freedom of speech, just as long as no one will threaten them? Sounds like that is what you are getting at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garhkal View Post
    So one should only organize a protest and stand up for one's freedom of speech, just as long as no one will threaten them? Sounds like that is what you are getting at.

  10. #30
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garhkal View Post
    So one should only organize a protest and stand up for one's freedom of speech, just as long as no one will threaten them? Sounds like that is what you are getting at.
    Not at all, but he should have been able to foresee that this would have potential consequences for him.

    If it were me, what is the risk vs. the gain and is it worth it to me (and potentially my family.) I don't believe in only fighting a fight I can win, some fights are worth fighting ... but I have responsibilities for more than just myself as well.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

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