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Thread: House Panel Backs Major Military Retirement Overhaul

  1. #101
    Senior Member USN - Retired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    It is my understanding that the social security program is prohibited from borrowing money.
    I didn't say the social security program is going to borrow money. I said: Under current law, when the social security program goes into an annual cash deficit, the government has to seek alternate funding beyond the payroll taxes dedicated to the program to cover the shortfall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    When the SS program goes into an annual cash deficit...it reaches into it's own trust fund to make up the difference. That trust fund is currently somewhere near $3 Trillion...and we are currently still running a surplus (adding money to it)
    The trust fund is currently an IOU. These trust fund balances are available to finance future benefit payments and other Trust Fund expenditures, but only in a bookkeeping sense. They do not consist of real economic assets that can be drawn down in the future to fund benefits. Instead, they are claims on the Treasury that, when redeemed, will have to be financed by raising taxes, borrowing from the public, or reducing benefits or other expenditures. The existence of large Trust Fund balances, therefore, does not, by itself, have any impact on the Government’s ability to pay benefits. George Bush said, "Some in our country think that Social Security is a trust fund – in other words, there's a pile of money being accumulated. That's just simply not true. The money – payroll taxes going into the Social Security are spent. They're spent on benefits and they're spent on government programs. There is no trust"
    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    It's "gone" in the same way that money you put in the bank is "gone"...in the same way that if you purchased a savings bond it's "gone"...in the same way that if you purchased stock in a company it's "gone"
    You are really far down the rabbit hole today. Money that has been spent is not the same as money in a bank account or money invested in stock.

    The federal government has already spent (squandered?) the money in the social security trust fund. It is gone. The money is gone. The federal government will have to get that $2.7 trillion back by raising taxes or by borrowing from the public (or the Chinese).
    As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others

  2. #102
    Senior Member Bos Mutus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    I didn't say the social security program is going to borrow money. I said: Under current law, when the social security program goes into an annual cash deficit, the government has to seek alternate funding beyond the payroll taxes dedicated to the program to cover the shortfall.

    The trust fund is currently an IOU. These trust fund balances are available to finance future benefit payments and other Trust Fund expenditures, but only in a bookkeeping sense. They do not consist of real economic assets that can be drawn down in the future to fund benefits. Instead, they are claims on the Treasury that, when redeemed, will have to be financed by raising taxes, borrowing from the public, or reducing benefits or other expenditures. The existence of large Trust Fund balances, therefore, does not, by itself, have any impact on the Government’s ability to pay benefits. George Bush said, "Some in our country think that Social Security is a trust fund – in other words, there's a pile of money being accumulated. That's just simply not true. The money – payroll taxes going into the Social Security are spent. They're spent on benefits and they're spent on government programs. There is no trust"


    You are really far down the rabbit hole today. Money that has been spent is not the same as money in a bank account or money invested in stock.

    The federal government has already spent (squandered?) the money in the social security trust fund. It is gone. The money is gone. The federal government will have to get that $2.7 trillion back by raising taxes or by borrowing from the public (or the Chinese).
    You are really dense.

    Separate for a minute and focus on the Social Security fund. As I mentioned, SS does not have cash in a vault. yes, it has IOUs...which are exactly the same as the IOU that you have when you purchase a savings bond from the federal government....also, those IOUs earn interest! In fact, the SS interest is a big reason why the SS surplus is still growing.

    What do you think the govt. does with the money it collects from selling bonds? Here's a hint...they spend it.

    You are arguing..."but, I don't have that money because in order to get it back from the federal govt., the federal govt has to raise that money..." blah blah blah.

    You are mixing apples and oranges...although SS is administered by the federal govt, it does not get money from them...and does not "give" money to them...it loans it to them...the same as you do if you purchase a bond.

    If you "put money in the bank"...you are loaning your money to the bank...you don't think the bank has everyone's money in cash in the vault, do you? Did you know what the bank does with the money when you give it to them?

    Here's a hint...they spend it!

    When you buy a stock...what do you think the company does with that money?? They spend it, ya goof.

    LOL...give it up, man...
    Last edited by Bos Mutus; 04-30-2015 at 12:00 AM.
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  3. #103
    Senior Member Bos Mutus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLAPS, USAF (ret) View Post
    Wow...really? We borrow around $.40 for each dollar we spend and this is a good thing? We are going to reach a point where 100% of GDP will need to be used to service the debt/pay the interest. Interest rates are close to zero right now. What happens to the debt when interest rates go back up? It explodes!
    Of course there is such a thing as too much debt...I couldn't right now tell you what that amount is...but, we're not there. Don't believe the hype.

    It's mostly a politician-created, media-driven crisis.

    True, some debt is necessary, but only when it is manageable and keeps debt/GDP ratio constant. However, it's not. It's rapidly eating up GDP and is absolutely unsustainable.
    Debt is necessary...but yes, it should be manageable. I tell you what...doesn't matter if it's .40 to the dollar or .004 cents to the dollar, some politician will whip you into a frenzy over it.

    .
    Last edited by Bos Mutus; 04-30-2015 at 12:02 AM.
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  4. #104
    Senior Member USN - Retired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    yes, it has IOUs...which are exactly the same as the IOU that you have when you purchase a savings bond from the federal government.
    You and I (and all the other tax payers) have to pay the federal government's $2.7 Trillion IOU to the social security trust fund. You seem to be having trouble grasping that point. Perhaps you think that the $2.7 Trillion will be created by magic. Of course, the federal government could just borrow the $2.7 Trillion from China. That would be nice (NOT).

    Perhaps you don't understand that $2.7 Trillion is a lot of money.
    As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others

  5. #105
    Senior Member USN - Retired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    Of course there is such a thing as too much debt...I couldn't right now tell you what that amount is...but, we're not there. Don't believe the hype.

    It's mostly a politician-created, media-driven crisis.



    Debt is necessary...but yes, it should be manageable. I tell you what...doesn't matter if it's .40 to the dollar or .004 cents to the dollar, some politician will whip you into a frenzy over it.

    .
    Click this link for the US debt clock...

    http://www.usdebtclock.org/

    On March 6, 2015, debt held by the public had reached $13.08 trillion or about 74% of Q4 2014 GDP. Intragovernmental holdings stood at $5.07 trillion, giving a combined total public debt of $18.15 trillion or about 103% of Q4 2014 GDP. $6.1 trillion or approximately 47% of the debt held by the public was owned by foreign investors, the largest of which were the People's Republic of China and Japan at about $1.3 trillion and $1.2 trillion respectively.
    That doesn't look good to me.
    As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others

  6. #106
    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    Brace yourself folks. In about 15 to 20 years, there will be some significant increases in taxes and significant decreases in social security benefits.
    Been hearing that for the last 40 years.

  7. #107
    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    Click this link for the US debt clock...

    http://www.usdebtclock.org/

    On March 6, 2015, debt held by the public had reached $13.08 trillion or about 74% of Q4 2014 GDP. Intragovernmental holdings stood at $5.07 trillion, giving a combined total public debt of $18.15 trillion or about 103% of Q4 2014 GDP. $6.1 trillion or approximately 47% of the debt held by the public was owned by foreign investors, the largest of which were the People's Republic of China and Japan at about $1.3 trillion and $1.2 trillion respectively.
    That doesn't look good to me.
    It means nothing.

  8. #108
    Senior Member Bos Mutus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    You and I (and all the other tax payers) have to pay the federal government's $2.7 Trillion IOU to the social security trust fund. You seem to be having trouble grasping that point. Perhaps you think that the $2.7 Trillion will be created by magic. Of course, the federal government could just borrow the $2.7 Trillion from China. That would be nice (NOT).
    No, I have no trouble grasping that point...you seem to have trouble grasping the idea that gosh, SS is not going to come knocking for all the money tomorrow...money shifts and changes...look at it more like someone who keeps refinancing their house over and over and pulling cash out...yeah, you owe the money, but you don't have to pay it back until you sell the house...only the federal govt. won't ever sell the house.

    ...SS is still operating at a surplus and when and if it does need to start calling in it's debtor, it's not going to be all at once.

    Perhaps you don't understand that $2.7 Trillion is a lot of money.
    The federal debt is something to deal with...but has little to nothing to do with the solvency of social security.

    This is why we have so much division today...people who know just enough to balance a checkbook at their kitchen table are so easily led astray by BIG NUMBERS and DEBT and DEFICIT, etc....when most of it is just a normal part of business.

    Yes...there's a point when the debt will get too high...but you're old enough to remember we been through that argument before...Reagan critics over the debt in the 80s? we should've been bankrupt long ago if you listened to that...but instead it gave way to surpluses in the 90s as the tax base expanded.

    My final conclusion:

    Social security is fine...it's going to need some updates just as it has a dozen times since its inception.

    Federal debt is okay...the deficit is actually shrinking, which is still a deficit, so don't stop construction on the bunker just yet...but no need to go off-grid either.
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  9. #109
    Senior Member Bos Mutus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    Click this link for the US debt clock...

    http://www.usdebtclock.org/

    On March 6, 2015, debt held by the public had reached $13.08 trillion or about 74% of Q4 2014 GDP. Intragovernmental holdings stood at $5.07 trillion, giving a combined total public debt of $18.15 trillion or about 103% of Q4 2014 GDP. $6.1 trillion or approximately 47% of the debt held by the public was owned by foreign investors, the largest of which were the People's Republic of China and Japan at about $1.3 trillion and $1.2 trillion respectively.
    That doesn't look good to me.
    It could be millions or coochillions and you would say the same thing...framed to create panic...because you think federal govt "debt" is the same as you being in credit card debt...it isn't.

    Do you know how many countries owe how much to the U.S?

    I'm out...got homework to do. You all can head down tot he bunker and play doomsday grab ass all night if you want....I've been hearing the same shit for my whole life...yet, here we are...still fine. Heck you're old enough to remember all the panic over Reagan deficits, right?

    What's really important is time....there's no savings bond or credit card for that.
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  10. #110
    Senior Member TJMAC77SP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    I'm not seeing anyone with rose-colored glasses...unless that's how you characterize my point of view here...

    I think there are some things that need to be addressed...but there always is. There is no solution to anything that will fix problems forever...doesn't mean the weren't effective at mitigating problems, lessening them, etc.
    I was saying the Dems seem to have that attitude ("but I also don't believe the rose colored glasses outlook of the Dems (actually more of an ostrich kinda outlook.)). Not one major speech during the 2012 Democratic Convention in Charlotte mentioned anything substantial about fixing social security. That is a travesty. What is worse, hyperbole about the eminent demise or silence? I don't consider the following to be substantial..."And we will keep the promise of Social Security by taking the responsible steps to strengthen it, not by turning it over to Wall Street."

    For the record, privatizing SS scares the bejesus out of me but a two sided discussion and then action needs to occur now, not later. I do agree that in the end it will probably be a compromise of both parties approach but without some action soon, like years ago, we do run the serious risk of the program failing.
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