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Thread: Atheists now become a protected class of people

  1. #121
    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    BAMF--Bad Atheist Mo' Fo'
    Chuck Norris > Bruce Lee

    "I definitely feel I do have God in my corner."
    Chuck Norris

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Right... Satan rejects God/Jesus/whatever, and is in hell. Yet, he's Christian? Nope. You ignored what I said earlier - the system of belief in Christianity is laid out in at least 66 books. It takes more than just a belief in God, or that Jesus was the son of God, or that belief in him is required for salvation. That what those 66+ books are there for.

    Seems to me like you're hell bent on making atheism into a "system," and your frustration that it's not working is showing.
    Hell-bent. Funny. Still abusive instead of an honest attempt at having a conversation, though. I feel sad for you.

    The Christian theologies I have any real familiarity with all say that the primary difference between humans (more specifically the human soul) and angels is that humans have free will. If I have to explain the implications of the entire aspect of Lucifer from there, then you are either really incapable of thought or you don't remember that Lucifer was the first amongst the angels before he took over the role of tempter and deceiver.
    Back from the bit bucket. Somebody flushed the buffers on me, though . . ..

  3. #123
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hustonj View Post
    Hell-bent. Funny. Still abusive instead of an honest attempt at having a conversation, though. I feel sad for you.
    When I start acting like a thin-skinned bitch, complaining about "abuse," THEN you can feel sad for me. Until then... I'm just gonna tell you to man the fuck up, chump.

    The Christian theologies I have any real familiarity with all say that the primary difference between humans (more specifically the human soul) and angels is that humans have free will. If I have to explain the implications of the entire aspect of Lucifer from there, then you are either really incapable of thought or you don't remember that Lucifer was the first amongst the angels before he took over the role of tempter and deceiver.
    This is completely irrelevant to the point of whether or not atheist is a religion, or a "system of beliefs." Incapable of thought? Yet, you can't even think your way through your own arguments. I've got a suggestion for you - pathetic attempts to try to sound intelligent at other people's expense seems to be your MO, but it isn't working. Try something else.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

  4. #124
    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by technomage1 View Post
    Let's remember the main point that started this whole thing: that assertion that the law in Madison, WI made atheism a religion. It did not, and plainly defined those with "religion or no religion" as a protected class. I figured as much prior to even doing research on the subject as Madison, WI, home of the Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) would be that last place on earth where such a law would be passed, at least not without a knock-down, drag out fight.

    Anyway, near as I can tell through all the verbal gymnastics, SJs main point is that atheism is a religion because they are a group of people that have an opinion on religion. That opinion is that there are no gods. An atheist would never describe themselves as having a religion because atheism (Buddhists aside) is pretty much the opposite of religion. There are no creeds, no universally recognized symbols, no holy books, or any of the other trappings that a religion has. Even if we did, that broad of a definition of religion would also include sports team fans, gamers, star trek fans, etc. Lets take sports teams fans. If you're a fan of the Ohio State Buckeyes, for example, you have your own symbols (Brutus, the block O, etc), traditions (Script Ohio), songs, venerated figures (Woody Hayes), and literature (books on OSU history, traditions, etc). Yet no one would call a group of people who are the fans of a sports team a religion. We might say "He follows OSU religiously" with a chuckle, but that's as far as we'd go with it, and even then we recognize there is an inherent difference there. We're saying by that chuckle that a sports team fan is not a religion and we know it. Yet theists have no problem classifying atheists - who have less religious trappings than a sports team - a religion.

    So why call atheism a religion? What does the theist gain by doing so? It could be as simple as not being able to picture or process someone leading their lives without religion. But I think SJ's vehement defense of his position, verbal gymnastics, and illogic has a deeper reason than that. I think it stems from a one (or both) of two things: a fundamental misunderstanding of the atheist worldview or a desire to "even the playing field". If you classify atheism as a religion, then, by their reckoning, the neutrality that atheists defend becomes a religious viewpoint. And, following that logic, that means their religious faith would have equal opportunity or more opportunity due to being a majority view. Their question becomes, "If it's all a religious view, then why do the atheists get to promote theirs and the theists don't get to?".

    Atheists who defend secularism do so to prevent violations of the establishment clause and the civil rights act (prayers before government meetings, preference to religious groups, etc). This is neutral to and not hostile to religion as some theists claim (apparently these people think freedom of religion includes the right to proselytize, bully, intimidate, and ignore other viewpoints, but I digress). It doesn't prevent private people or organizations from worshipping as they see fit. it does prevent them from forcing that belief on anyone else, or using the government to advocate their viewpoint.

    By defining atheists as a religion, theists seek to prove that secularism isn't neutral to religion but in fact is favoring the atheist. In fact, it's not favoring anyone - and that's the point. Secularism does not equate to atheism. It doesn't favor one viewpoint over the other. It doesn't say there is a god or that there isn't. It holds that all people are equal before the law.

    They fail to see that the law and the neutrality protects both the theist and the atheist. If atheists ever gain the majority of power, the law would prevent us from closing down all churches or stopping private prayer, for example. And I think that's a good thing. If there is one thing we all agree on, or should all agree on, it's the right to believe (or not) as you chose.

    Atheists fight a lot of the battles for secularism because we're the largest minority being affected by it. But theists, as I noted in my first post, should be equally concerned about our secular nation and values and be just as upset as atheists when those values and laws are ignored. Historically, they used to be. Baptists, for example, used to be among the biggest supporters of secularism and the separation of church and state because there weren't many Baptists. They were a minority, and felt keenly the lack of secularism. Fast forward 200+ years, there are more Baptists and now they're not so keen on the idea.
    Techno, You've obviously done your homework. But, can you just give us the cliff notes version? Rainmaker went to Allegany County public schools and would need to pop 3 adderalls just to finish reading this novel. NomSayin?
    Last edited by Rainmaker; 04-08-2015 at 02:25 PM.

  5. #125
    Senior Member Bos Mutus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainmaker View Post
    Chuck Norris > Bruce Lee
    Now you've really lost my respect.
    The Voice of Reason

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    When I start acting like a thin-skinned bitch, complaining about "abuse," THEN you can feel sad for me. Until then... I'm just gonna tell you to man the fuck up, chump.
    Actually, as an independent adult, I decide how I feel and when. You have no control or authority to alter those choices. I do feel sad for you.

    This is completely irrelevant to the point of whether or not atheist is a religion, or a "system of beliefs.
    Maybe, But it is a direct response to the pablum that you threw across the screen. This is another example of you choosing abuse over conversation.

    " Incapable of thought? Yet, you can't even think your way through your own arguments. I've got a suggestion for you - pathetic attempts to try to sound intelligent at other people's expense seems to be your MO, but it isn't working. Try something else.
    Yep, direct personal insults instead of on topic discussion, even if only on-topic based on where YOU led the discussion away from the main point!

    Your behavior indicates that having your respect would be meaningless.

    I did try something else. I tried providing statements of fact and supporting them. You refused to discuss either those facts or the support, simply refusing to accept them and then redirected the conversation to be more directly and personally insulting, and I have refused to just let you win at that, either.

    THIS is why I feel sad for you.

    Edit:

    Oh, and atheism is still defined as the BELIEF that there is not a god. It is a belief, whether you like to think of it that way or not.
    Last edited by hustonj; 04-08-2015 at 04:06 PM.
    Back from the bit bucket. Somebody flushed the buffers on me, though . . ..

  7. #127
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hustonj View Post
    Actually, as an independent adult, I decide how I feel and when. You have no control or authority to alter those choices. I do feel sad for you.
    You don't seem to have much control yourself there, chump. That's why you're continuing to act like a thin-skinned bitch. Notice how you're turning this thread into a discussion about ME. That said, you might want to give it a second thought on whether not I have control over how you feel... even if I'm not making a conscious effort to exercise such control.

    Maybe, But it is a direct response to the pablum that you threw across the screen. This is another example of you choosing abuse over conversation.
    It's not a direct response to anything. It's a red herring. An obvious intent to direct the conversation away from something that you're not winning. If you want to call that "abuse," so be it. You could just stop being a pussy and not do that, but it's up to you.

    Yep, direct personal insults instead of on topic discussion, even if only on-topic based on where YOU led the discussion away from the main point!
    You know, the post you responded to where you first used the word "abuse" - SJ and I talk to each other like that all the time. Fuck, you should've seen the back-and-forths that AA got into; but at the end of the day... it's all good. Tell me... what does your circle of friends look like? Mostly women? Whiney dudes? A bunch of practicing Christians? I don't think you "hang with the fellas" very often. That just shows in how pussified you are.

    Your behavior indicates that having your respect would be meaningless.
    Ouch, that hurt. Well, not really, but...

    I did try something else. I tried providing statements of fact and supporting them. You refused to discuss either those facts or the support, simply refusing to accept them and then redirected the conversation to be more directly and personally insulting, and I have refused to just let you win at that, either.

    THIS is why I feel sad for you.
    Too bad those "facts" you tried to state and support weren't relevant to the discussion at hand and were, like I said before, all a red herring. That's why I didn't address them, because there'd be no point!

    Edit:

    Oh, and atheism is still defined as the BELIEF that there is not a god. It is a belief, whether you like to think of it that way or not.
    You said belief system, chump, belief SYSTEM! SYSTEM - you know, something that's complex and made up of a number of components that function together for a particular result? One statement doesn't make a "belief system." It just merely forms a "belief!" Furthermore, even interjecting that claim does nothing to refute what I'm saying to SJ - that atheism is not a religion.

    Now, if you want to continue these assaults on each other's characters; I've got all day. But looking at how much you like to bitch about it, I'm not so sure you do.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

  8. #128
    Senior Member technomage1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainmaker View Post
    Techno, You've obviously done your homework. But, can you just give us the cliff notes version? Rainmaker went to Allegany County public schools and would need to pop 3 adderalls just to finish reading this novel. NomSayin?
    See atheist. See theist. Atheists are not religious. Theists are. Theists try to call atheists religious to advance their own agenda. This makes no sense. Secularism favors no one. Secularism is good.

    Kidding aside, I know it's long, but I wanted to be very, very precise with what I was saying to show how conclusive the case really is. And I think SJs response shows I hit the mark on that.

    I'm actually thinking of developing it into an article to submit to a publication I read. It needs a few more tweaks but it's a good piece.
    Newton's First Law of Motion

  9. #129
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Remember not to make personal insults please.

    Thank you
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

  10. #130
    Senior Member Capt Alfredo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    Remember not to make personal insults please.

    Thank you
    Exactly. It's a stupid idea, not a stupid person. There's a distinction there.

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