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Thread: Required to attend LGBT training at colleges.. right or wrong?

  1. #31
    Senior Member Bos Mutus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    This is my point that pretty much covers everything I've talked about. Some people (you, for instance) believe that we actually learn something from these safety briefings. It just doesn't happen. I still mow my lawn in my flip-flops, without eye or hearing protection. I don't need a briefing to tell me it's safer not to do it that way, I just choose to do so.

    If the organization wants to give a briefing on the consequences of breaking the rules, that's fine. It's only fair that people know what will happen to them if they don't play along, but to brief me on what's respectful and disrespectful is a waste of my time.
    Okay...so you've learned nothing in 20+ years. Everything you ever needed to know about occupational safety, interpersonal relations, etc. was taught to you by your wonderful parents...I don't believe you, but won't argue the point.

    And to your other point about there being many recent cases involving LGBT, that's only because it's the current trend. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Every gay performer gets a standing ovation. Every movie about gays wins an award.
    Yes, it is the current issue.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. Live your life how you want. Just don't tell me how I am supposed to feel about it.
    I don't think I did. I do think an organization be it a college or company has a right to tell you how they expect you to behave there.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    Okay...so you've learned nothing in 20+ years. Everything you ever needed to know about occupational safety, interpersonal relations, etc. was taught to you by your wonderful parents...I don't believe you, but won't argue the point.
    I'm talking about the information that's on the same level as how to treat LGBT...you know...like wear your seatbelt...don't drink and drive...the stuff that takes a brain surgeon to be able to understand.



    Yes, it is the current issue.
    Unfortunately it will continue to be the "current" issue for the...let's see...how long have the fights for women's right been going on? Oh, yeah, forever.



    I don't think I did. I do think an organization be it a college or company has a right to tell you how they expect you to behave there.
    So do I. I just don't think that it's relevant to how I approach a certain group of people. For instance, as I mentioned, they have the right to tell me to "act like a respectful adult". I don't want to hear how special someone is or how unfair certain people get treated. I just don't want it. I know it. It's out there all the time. It's in our face 24/7.

    This is Sexual Assault Awareness month, you know. Without it, I'd be out raping people right now, or I'd be standing by watching others rape people. Hell, I may not have even known that sexual assaults existed without it. Thank God someone was smart enough to institute this fun month of training. I really don't know how we functioned as a society before they started teaching us these things.
    Last edited by sandsjames; 04-03-2015 at 04:56 PM.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    How about this. How about organizations quit getting held responsible for the stupidity of it's people. How 'bout the lawsuits take place against the individual. Of course, that would mean that all these companies/colleges/hospitals would be able to drop their prices and we'd be able to afford them, so we can't have that.

    Punish the people involved. Don't fuck everyone else for the stupidity of some. I know that's hard to imagine after being in the military, but it is a viable option.

    edit: Just noticed that the same point was made above...
    That's the wrong answer. Let's say I had a gay son in college. He gets harassed one day, and then beaten the next because of his sexual orientation. If, based on what he has told me about his experience at the school, I have reason to believe that the college actually tolerates such behavior towards LGBT students... yes, I'm going to want the school to be held accountable. After seeing to it that the students involved in the attack are dealt with accordingly, I'm going to want to know the school's stance on that particular issue AND I'm going to want to know what the school does to prevent such things. You've gotta put yourself in the shoes of the parents.
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  4. #34
    Senior Member Bos Mutus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    I'm talking about the information that's on the same level as how to treat LGBT...you know...like wear your seatbelt...don't drink and drive...the stuff that takes a brain surgeon to be able to understand.
    There was a time that even the smartest brain surgeons did not habitually wear seatbelts.
    Many of people in our generation used to drink and drive regularly.
    One of my first military supervisors had 2 marijuana busts in his military record. He wasn't alone.
    Wasn't that long ago that it was perfectly acceptable to tell a gay joke at morning roll call

    I'll also say...that back before seatbelts became the norm for the civilian population, they became the norm for the military population...and it being hammered into our heads repeatedly was part of the reason for that.

    So, things do change.

    Unfortunately it will continue to be the "current" issue for the...let's see...how long have the fights for women's right been going on? Oh, yeah, forever.
    Yes, it's unfortunate it has to be a "fight" at all.

    So do I. I just don't think that it's relevant to how I approach a certain group of people. For instance, as I mentioned, they have the right to tell me to "act like a respectful adult". I don't want to hear how special someone is or how unfair certain people get treated. I just don't want it. I know it. It's out there all the time. It's in our face 24/7.

    This is Sexual Assault Awareness month, you know. Without it, I'd be out raping people right now. Thank God someone was smart enough to institute this fun month of training. I really don't know how we functioned as a society before they started teaching us these things.
    We functioned with widespread and embedded sexual assault, harassment of gays, women...institutional discrimination of minorities...unsafe working conditions...that's how we functioned.

    Anyway, none of this matters to the point of this thread anyway...we seem to agree now that GWU is and should be allowed to hold this training.
    Last edited by Bos Mutus; 04-03-2015 at 05:24 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    That's the wrong answer. Let's say I had a gay son in college. He gets harassed one day, and then beaten the next because of his sexual orientation. If, based on what he has told me about his experience at the school, I have reason to believe that the college actually tolerates such behavior towards LGBT students... yes, I'm going to want the school to be held accountable. After seeing to it that the students involved in the attack are dealt with accordingly, I'm going to want to know the school's stance on that particular issue AND I'm going to want to know what the school does to prevent such things. You've gotta put yourself in the shoes of the parents.
    If he was to get harassed and beaten, notified the school and they did nothing about it then, yes, they are culpable. However, if he is to get harassed and beaten and the school appropriately disciplines the other student then it's not the fault of the school, whether they provided training telling students it's not ok to harass and beat people or not.

    Either way, the training shouldn't be to the students on how you should treat gay kids with respect, it should be to the faculty on how to appropriately deal with those who do the "bullying".

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post
    There was a time that even the smartest brain surgeons did not habitually wear seatbelts.
    Many of people in our generation used to drink and drive regularly.
    One of my first military supervisors had 2 marijuana busts in his military record. He wasn't alone.
    Wasn't that long ago that it was perfectly acceptable to tell a gay joke at morning roll call
    Right, but be truthful. DUIs still happen. People still drive without seatbelts. The reason many people don't do those things isn't because they feel it's "unsafe", they just don't want to go to jail. So, I don't need a class showing me what happens when someone gets in a drunk driving accident, or an accident without a seatbelt. I just need to know what the legal consequences are for me if I fail to follow the law. Just as I don't need training on how I should treat LGBT (or any other group), I just need to be told that "if you decide to mistreat anyone, here are the consequences". Very simple. I don't need to be briefed on the personal feeling of the briefer/teacher as to why it's "wrong" to do something because, in my eyes, it may not be wrong. However, whether wrong or not, I won't do it if I know I'm going to get in trouble for it.

    I'll also say...that back before seatbelts became the norm for the civilian population, they became the norm for the military population...and it being hammered into our heads repeatedly was part of the reason for that.

    So, things do change.
    Again, they change solely because of the fear of getting in trouble, not because the person actually feels that doing it is wrong. So...tell me the consequences and let me be.



    Yes, it's unfortunate it has to be a "fight" at all.
    Indeed, because there is no reason for it.



    We functioned with widespread and embedded sexual assault, harassment of gays, women...institutional discrimination of minorities...unsafe working conditions...that's how we functioned.

    Anyway, none of this matters to the point of this thread anyway...we seem to agree now that GWU is and should be allowed to hold this training.
    Sure they should. They should also tell students before they fork over their tuition money that they are going to have to attend these sorts of indoctrinations.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Bos Mutus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    Right, but be truthful. DUIs still happen. People still drive without seatbelts.
    Not nearly as much...especially the seatbelts.


    The reason many people don't do those things isn't because they feel it's "unsafe", they just don't want to go to jail.
    For myself, I would agree with that more in the DUI than on the seatbelt thing. The main reason I don't DUI is my fear of getting caught...I personally believe I could effectively drive on 3 beers, but I'm afraid to get caught, so I don't.

    Seatbelts...I really feel unsafe if I'm not wearing one.

    So, I don't need a class showing me what happens when someone gets in a drunk driving accident, or an accident without a seatbelt. I just need to know what the legal consequences are for me if I fail to follow the law. Just as I don't need training on how I should treat LGBT (or any other group), I just need to be told that "if you decide to mistreat anyone, here are the consequences". Very simple. I don't need to be briefed on the personal feeling of the briefer/teacher as to why it's "wrong" to do something because, in my eyes, it may not be wrong. However, whether wrong or not, I won't do it if I know I'm going to get in trouble for it.
    I guess I just believe that not everyone is exactly like you...and I believe in the aggregate, over the years, training on these things has an impact. Maybe the accident movie doesn't do anything for you...I think it does for some other people. The punishment threat works for you, might not for some other people. A personal opinion of a respected mentor/leader might work for someone else.

    I think somewhere, DUI briefings impacted me. Not one in particular, but overall, they did. If I had just been told once how I would be punished for a DUI and nobody every mentioned it again...I don't believe it would have had the same impact, for me.

    Again, they change solely because of the fear of getting in trouble, not because the person actually feels that doing it is wrong. So...tell me the consequences and let me be.

    Indeed, because there is no reason for it.
    Not sure what you mean by that...do you mean because there is no reason to fight because there is no unequal treatment of gays or women? Or that there is no good reason that there is unequal treatment?

    Sure they should. They should also tell students before they fork over their tuition money that they are going to have to attend these sorts of indoctrinations.
    Well, everybody knows now, I guess. Will be interesting to see if the Christian groups re-enroll next semester.
    Last edited by Bos Mutus; 04-03-2015 at 07:56 PM.
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  8. #38
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    If he was to get harassed and beaten, notified the school and they did nothing about it then, yes, they are culpable. However, if he is to get harassed and beaten and the school appropriately disciplines the other student then it's not the fault of the school, whether they provided training telling students it's not ok to harass and beat people or not.

    Either way, the training shouldn't be to the students on how you should treat gay kids with respect, it should be to the faculty on how to appropriately deal with those who do the "bullying".
    Right, so it's better for a gay student to get jumped as long as they punish the students who did it... than to create an enviroment where students know that such behavior is not tolerated and what the consquences are, thus reducing the likelihood of such an attack occuring in the first place.

    While we're at it, maybe we should stop mandating car seats for infants and toddlers. After all, the hospital will fix them right up!
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Right, so it's better for a gay student to get jumped as long as they punish the students who did it... than to create an enviroment where students know that such behavior is not tolerated and what the consquences are, thus reducing the likelihood of such an attack occuring in the first place.
    It's not going to create that environment, Rusty. That environment will come with time and familiarity, nothing less. And it's not right for ANY student to get jumped (why the fuck is that so hard to understand???).

    While we're at it, maybe we should stop mandating car seats for infants and toddlers. After all, the hospital will fix them right up!
    It's not just infants and toddlers. Some places it's kids up to 9 or 10 years old, depending on their weight/size. I would stop that mandate, for sure. Do I think infants and toddlers should ride in one? Sure I do, and I would put mine in one. Are you going to put your 9 or 10 year old son in a booster seat in your car? I highly doubt it.

    It's the choice of the parent, just as abortion is. Doesn't mean I would do it, but in a country that offers choice it's the only way to go about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos Mutus View Post

    For myself, I would agree with that more in the DUI than on the seatbelt thing. The main reason I don't DUI is my fear of getting caught...I personally believe I could effectively drive on 3 beers, but I'm afraid to get caught, so I don't.
    Good to know that you're more interested in protecting yourself than possibly killing someone else.



    I think somewhere, DUI briefings impacted me. Not one in particular, but overall, they did. If I had just been told once how I would be punished for a DUI and nobody every mentioned it again...I don't believe it would have had the same impact, for me.
    But the point is that it has nothing to do with the actual reason for driving after a few beers, other than the punishment. Same as the college training. It's about the outcome, not the reasoning behind it.



    Not sure what you mean by that...do you mean because there is no reason to fight because there is no unequal treatment of gays or women? Or that there is no good reason that there is unequal treatment?
    There is unequal treatment of everyone at some point. I guess it depends on what you believe equates to unequal treatment as it relates to women.



    Well, everybody knows now, I guess. Will be interesting to see if the Christian groups re-enroll next semester.
    Oh, they will definitely enroll, just to create a reason to bitch. Christian groups are no different than any of the other groups we've been talking about. They want to be victims. They want the attention. They want to create an environment that breeds contempt. Just as with the LGBT groups, the Christian groups either want you to agree with their point of view or you aren't worthy of being around. It's not good enough to just tolerate people now. You are expected to accept everyone. That's just not going to work.

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