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Thread: Duke university to start Muslim call to prayer in Jan 15.

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJMAC77SP View Post
    MM, I am little confused as to why you quoted my post as most of the last part of your post intimates that I am somehow one of those Christians who balk at the prayer calls and 1. I am not, merely question the true motivation and 2. I am not a very good Christian. I believe that was asserted in an earlier thread.

    You (or someone else) brought up this Muslim prayer at a military function before and I will repeat what I said then...I have been present at such an event. BCT graduation at Fort Jackson in October 2010. The Chaplin was an Imam and offered a Muslim prayer as the beginning and end of the ceremony. I didn't hear a single murmur. I am not saying it wouldn't happen but that is just my personal experience.

    I strongly agree with you about where the hypocrisy would lie in the scenario you describe

    Was the balking of prayers on Friday a joke?
    In my 20 years in, i have only seen 2 times, Islamic invocations given at ceremonies. Both were for retiring Muslim troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Measure Man View Post
    ...because they have the largest medical research dept in the country...something the govt finds is a worthwhile thing to invest in. They compete for those grants...and doesn't make them a govt institution.

    Duke also gets more business donations for medical research than any other university...does that make them a corporate university?

    Not sure what your point is really....if you want Duke to observe separation of church and state because they won some federal grants, I'm okay with that...are you going to insist Christian orgs and universities do the same? How about actual govt institutions?
    My point is, there are plenty of people using the fact something is 'government funded, or an "Official government place" due to it say being town or city ran, to justify it being forced to remove various religious articles, whether the 10 commandments, statues/pictures of Jesus or others.
    So why is it a place that receives so much federal funding, is considered "Private" in regards to it not having to follow that mantra (Which i disagree with anyway. NO where in the constitution is separation of church and state mentioned).

    Quote Originally Posted by TJMAC77SP View Post
    If Christians were to attempt to hold services in a mosque when there was a church less than 2 miles away I would say they possibly had an agenda as well and it wouldn't be tradition. Is there a specific incident you are basing your claim on or just your opinion based on your overall opinion of Christians
    But do you think if Christians did try that, they would even get the school governing body to allow it, like it was done here (before uproar and people saying funding would get withheld caused them to reverse it)?

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by garhkal View Post
    In my 20 years in, i have only seen 2 times, Islamic invocations given at ceremonies. Both were for retiring Muslim troops.

    My point is, there are plenty of people using the fact something is 'government funded, or an "Official government place" due to it say being town or city ran, to justify it being forced to remove various religious articles, whether the 10 commandments, statues/pictures of Jesus or others.
    So why is it a place that receives so much federal funding, is considered "Private" in regards to it not having to follow that mantra
    Because something that actually IS an "Official Government place" has abide by the limits placed on govt. by the constitution. Something that isn't, doesn't. They are two completely different things...one actually is the government, one isn't. While most, if not all, "official government places" probably have government funding...not everything the government funds becomes a government entity.

    (Which i disagree with anyway. NO where in the constitution is separation of church and state mentioned).
    So old an tired...can you understand paraphrased...or a shorthand term for the concept?

    The exact words are not in there...much like the words "right to privacy" are not in there...or "right to own a handgun"...other words were used to describe the concept.

    Want to know some other words never mentioned in the Constitution? God, Jesus, Christian Nation, tradition, Air Force.

    Everybody knows that the Constitution does not use the words "separation of Church and State"...everybody knows these particular words were taken from a metaphor used in a letter from Thomas Jefferson when he was explaining the Constitution to the Danbury Baptists. These words continue to be frequently used as shorthand for the concept in the Constitution to which Jefferson was referring to.

    Do we really have to post the entire First Amendment verbatim to discuss it?...or can we dismiss all of our rights by saying "nowhere does the Constitution say you have a 'right to a handgun'...nowhere in the Constitution does it say you have a 'right to privacy'...no where in the Constitution does it say you have a 'right to a fair trial'..nowhere in the constitution does it say you have a 'right not to be put in jail arbitrarily'

    But, what you mention is a good example of why the separation of church and state is important...because the day is coming that there will be a Muslim dominated town....or small city...and maybe they will want to have the Koran in their court house...and maybe they will want to broadcast the call to prayer for town hall...are you going to say, "well, no where in the constitution does it say there must be separation of church and state"?
    Last edited by Measure Man; 01-21-2015 at 12:45 AM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Measure Man View Post
    Because something that actually IS an "Official Government place" has abide by the limits placed on govt. by the constitution. Something that isn't, doesn't. They are two completely different things...one actually is the government, one isn't. While most, if not all, "official government places" probably have government funding...not everything the government funds becomes a government entity.



    So old an tired...can you understand paraphrased...or a shorthand term for the concept?

    The exact words are not in there...much like the words "right to privacy" are not in there...or "right to own a handgun"...other words were used to describe the concept.

    Want to know some other words never mentioned in the Constitution? God, Jesus, Christian Nation, tradition, Air Force.
    Everybody knows that the Constitution does not use the words "separation of Church and State"...everybody knows these particular words were taken from a metaphor used in a letter from Thomas Jefferson when he was explaining the Constitution to the Danbury Baptists. These words continue to be frequently used as shorthand for the concept in the Constitution to which Jefferson was referring to.

    Do we really have to post the entire First Amendment verbatim to discuss it?...or can we dismiss all of our rights by saying "nowhere does the Constitution say you have a 'right to a handgun'...nowhere in the Constitution does it say you have a 'right to privacy'...no where in the Constitution does it say you have a 'right to a fair trial'..nowhere in the constitution does it say you have a 'right not to be put in jail arbitrarily'

    But, what you mention is a good example of why the separation of church and state is important...because the day is coming that there will be a Muslim dominated town....or small city...and maybe they will want to have the Koran in their court house...and maybe they will want to broadcast the call to prayer for town hall...are you going to say, "well, no where in the constitution does it say there must be separation of church and state"?
    The Constitution was largely based on Anglo-Saxon common law. It was designed as a Republic for a Christian people ( " to ourselves and our posterity"). Since, 98% of the population at the time was Protestant, 2% was Roman Catholic and there were about 2,000 Jews. It's not a reach to say that it presupposed a Christian Citizenry.

    However, It's true they were not planning a fundamentalist, evangelical, theocracy that the Neocon Nut jobs (anxiously waiting to be raptured ahead of the apocalypse, while planning for a 1000 year reign of Greater Israel) have been giving us for 25 years.

    And guess what other word isn't in the constitution? "Interpretation"..... But, It was working pretty well for 200+ years until these secret worshipers of Lucifer seized control and stacked the Federal court system with corrupted judges that pervert both the spirit of the law and the letter of the law.

    You also raise a valid point about a Muslim dominated town, coming soon to a suburb near you. Which begs the obvious question..... why do we continue to import 500K Muslim immigrants (most of whom we know will break the law and overstay their Visa) every year? To what end are they doing this?
    Last edited by Rainmaker; 01-21-2015 at 08:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garhkal View Post
    In my 20 years in, i have only seen 2 times, Islamic invocations given at ceremonies. Both were for retiring Muslim troops.
    Well, in fairness it was more nondenominational. Mentioned almighty God but not Muhammad. Of course didn't invoke Jesus' name either. I know he was Muslim though because I was next to him at the conclusion of the ceremony. I have never met an AF Muslim Chaplain.




    Quote Originally Posted by garhkal View Post
    But do you think if Christians did try that, they would even get the school governing body to allow it, like it was done here (before uproar and people saying funding would get withheld caused them to reverse it)?
    I don't actually see that ever happening. I really can't predict what reaction any party would have.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJMAC77SP View Post
    I have never met an AF Muslim Chaplain.
    This had me curious. Apparantly Muslim chaplains do exist. There is one listed on the Air Force Chaplain recruiter page. It also says the Air Force accepts endorsed and qualified applicants from faith groups that include Roman Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Clergy.

    It is interesting that the cutoff seems to be those groups. A long time ago I had a discussion with someone about chaplains. In order to become a chaplain you need to go to an accredited college and recieve a theology degree in a religion the AF accepts. The reason it came up was because I was asking if a wiccan chaplain exists anywhere. The short answer is that you can't get a degree in wiccan studies that the AF would accept.

    http://www.airforce.com/chaplain/

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    Quote Originally Posted by SomeRandomGuy View Post
    This had me curious. Apparantly Muslim chaplains do exist. There is one listed on the Air Force Chaplain recruiter page. It also says the Air Force accepts endorsed and qualified applicants from faith groups that include Roman Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Clergy.

    It is interesting that the cutoff seems to be those groups. A long time ago I had a discussion with someone about chaplains. In order to become a chaplain you need to go to an accredited college and recieve a theology degree in a religion the AF accepts. The reason it came up was because I was asking if a wiccan chaplain exists anywhere. The short answer is that you can't get a degree in wiccan studies that the AF would accept.

    http://www.airforce.com/chaplain/
    Judging by the looks of that website, It won't be too long. Nice "Culturally Rich + Diverse" chaplain corps. The only thing they're missing is a Flamboyantly Gay, Shaman Witch Doctor..... Can't us taxpayers get just one, token, good ole fashioned, stereotypical, WASP chaplain on the page? Or is that now verboten here in Obama's Oceania?
    Last edited by Rainmaker; 01-21-2015 at 07:36 PM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Measure Man View Post
    Because something that actually IS an "Official Government place" has abide by the limits placed on govt. by the constitution. Something that isn't, doesn't. They are two completely different things...one actually is the government, one isn't. While most, if not all, "official government places" probably have government funding...not everything the government funds becomes a government entity.



    So old an tired...can you understand paraphrased...or a shorthand term for the concept?

    The exact words are not in there...much like the words "right to privacy" are not in there...or "right to own a handgun"...other words were used to describe the concept.

    Want to know some other words never mentioned in the Constitution? God, Jesus, Christian Nation, tradition, Air Force.

    Everybody knows that the Constitution does not use the words "separation of Church and State"...everybody knows these particular words were taken from a metaphor used in a letter from Thomas Jefferson when he was explaining the Constitution to the Danbury Baptists. These words continue to be frequently used as shorthand for the concept in the Constitution to which Jefferson was referring to.

    Do we really have to post the entire First Amendment verbatim to discuss it?...or can we dismiss all of our rights by saying "nowhere does the Constitution say you have a 'right to a handgun'...nowhere in the Constitution does it say you have a 'right to privacy'...no where in the Constitution does it say you have a 'right to a fair trial'..nowhere in the constitution does it say you have a 'right not to be put in jail arbitrarily'

    But, what you mention is a good example of why the separation of church and state is important...because the day is coming that there will be a Muslim dominated town....or small city...and maybe they will want to have the Koran in their court house...and maybe they will want to broadcast the call to prayer for town hall...are you going to say, "well, no where in the constitution does it say there must be separation of church and state"?
    You was making a great counter argument right up to those last 2 paragraphs.
    The 1st amendment says that "prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion". So, how is say a court house having the 10 commandments (a center for how and where our laws came from), the govt establishing a religion?
    Or say the Marine corp Rifleman's creed, having it in the last paragraph of the creed, "Before god i swear this creed", establishing a religion?

    That's where i see the "fallacy" in a lot of these arguments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garhkal View Post
    You was making a great counter argument right up to those last 2 paragraphs.
    The 1st amendment says that "prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion". So, how is say a court house having the 10 commandments (a center for how and where our laws came from), the govt establishing a religion?
    Or say the Marine corp Rifleman's creed, having it in the last paragraph of the creed, "Before god i swear this creed", establishing a religion?

    That's where i see the "fallacy" in a lot of these arguments.
    I didn't invent the phrase 'wall of separation between church and state' ...Jefferson did, a concept that has been upheld on many occasions by many courts....so you can disagree with it, just please don't say it doesn't exist in the Constitution. Just admit you don't agree with the Constitution on that point. If you wish the founders had created a Christian Nation instead of the one they did, just say so.

    Even more enlightening as to what was in the founders minds on the 1st Amendment, read what James Madison had to say on the matter...you know his role in the Constitution I expect. I'm on a tablet or I would quote some for you

    We should be happy our laws don't come from the 10 commandments...or you would be punished for stuff your Grandpa did...

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    The way Coach Wallace explained it to Rainmaker in Allegany Public School Civics class circa 1986 was like this....
    The United States (i.e The State) operates under a secular civil constitution.
    American Society (i.e The Nation) is obviously majority Christian.
    Of course none of this matters because, the Congress outsourced the power to coin money to the unconstitutional private global,banking cartel. They operate under the golden rule. that he who has the gold makes the rules. Usury is not a Christian Value.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Measure Man View Post
    I didn't invent the phrase 'wall of separation between church and state' ...Jefferson did, a concept that has been upheld on many occasions by many courts....so you can disagree with it, just please don't say it doesn't exist in the Constitution. Just admit you don't agree with the Constitution on that point. If you wish the founders had created a Christian Nation instead of the one they did, just say so.
    I am an Agnostic, so care not if they had made it a Christian nation, but that Jefferson did mention he felt there should be separation between church and state AFTER the Constitution was wrote, being considered part of it where i have issues. Its like if i penned my will, but later on mentioned that "i really should have had XYZ in it" doesn't make it so.

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