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Thread: Navy Bootcamp Mulls No Longer Shaving Recruits' Heads

  1. #151
    Senior Member Capt Alfredo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJMAC77SP View Post
    Actually what we know is that women transition. What we don't 'know' is what measures are taken to assimilate them in lieu of shaving their heads. We don't 'know' the comparative failure rates between men and women. By 'know' in this case I mean we haven't done a proper comparison here.

    Let's look at this from your standpoint. Why to we teach drill and ceremonies? Close order drill in no way contributes to the mission of the military. It is necessary for parades and such but that is hardly a mission of the military, merely a 'by-product' sort of thing and actually a left over from the days when that is actually how armies moved on the battlefield. Certainly not applicable to today's military.

    I kind of think drill does do something for the military trainee that is tangible. It gets everyone to work together and play specific roles as part of a greater team. It's not male vs female or tall vs short or anything like that; it's everyone, marching in step, reacting to the orders of the person placed in charge of the formation. I thought it was useful both as a member of the unit and also as the person marching the flight when I was put in that position. Do we "march into battle" anymore? No. But personally, I think this is a valuable bit of training.

  2. #152
    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJMAC77SP View Post
    Your posts seem to say both which is confusing.

    The pilot program is going to measure a fairly intangible thing. I am not a betting man but if I were I would bet that the pilot program 'proves' to be a success.

    Most people posting here (myself included) don't really give two shits about whether or not a male recruit gets their head shaved; or that a female recruit doesn't. We are simply tired of people (leadership) attempting to fix what ain't broke while there is a shit ton of stuff in the military that does need to be fixed. I am scared to death picturing the staff hours that went into this study and the hours that will be spent executing it and then studying the results. Oh the Power Point presentations alone are enough to cause an MI.

    Someoneraised the issue of TQM. If you study Deming's work and how the Japaneseimplemented it there is obvious genius there. Unfortunately we aren'tJapanese and our execution of it was an abortion. We became (and to alarge extent still are) a metric driven force. TQM became a performancereport bullet statement. Don't have it? Forget about it. Itbecame the 90's equivalent of not stating a member supports the equalopportunity program. Do we need to shave the heads of malerecruits? I don’t know, let’s do a pilotprogram and see. Stupid and pointless. Sorry, I know I am off point here a bit but it is just another indicator of the mindset of failure we have in the military. We have very little true leadership. Not to say that is a universal problem (or even unique to this time period) but it is enough to cause me serious concern.
    Alternativelysome staff weenie asks the question and the man/woman in charge asks………whatevidence do we have it isn’t helping train recruits?....................none……………ok ,are there any areas for which we have empirical data that shows we couldimprove?...................yes……….ok, there are your marching orders. Now, if the US military wasn’t in the throesof a reduction unseen since the end of WWI I might concede that all issuescould be looked at and worked. Anyonewant to claim we still have those resources?

    Grantedthis is just a bunch of opinions being spewed by people who don’t really have adog in the fight but that hardly means we should be silent in the face ofsilliness.

    Good Post...TQM....Rainmaker still shudders when he hears that phrase....

    Japan's economy collapsed in 1991 and has never really recovered. Japan (just like China today) was a bubble economy fueled by the Globalists who off-shored our industrial production.

    Japanese genius was a myth, designed to deflect the American Citizen's attention away from how bad the Political Class and their Oligarch Masters were screwing them.

    TQM doesn't work.
    Last edited by Rainmaker; 01-17-2015 at 04:09 AM.

  3. #153
    Senior Member TJMAC77SP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt Alfredo View Post
    I kind of think drill does do something for the military trainee that is tangible. It gets everyone to work together and play specific roles as part of a greater team. It's not male vs female or tall vs short or anything like that; it's everyone, marching in step, reacting to the orders of the person placed in charge of the formation. I thought it was useful both as a member of the unit and also as the person marching the flight when I was put in that position. Do we "march into battle" anymore? No. But personally, I think this is a valuable bit of training.
    Why are you going back two pages to reply to a post you already replied to? I am even more confused now. I agree with you but as stated using the logic provided, drill is of no use in current training since it could potentially be replaced by more relevant and efficient methods. You seem to be now making the point that shaving the heads of males should stand as it too provides something that is tangible.
    Last edited by TJMAC77SP; 01-17-2015 at 06:20 AM.
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  4. #154
    Senior Member Capt Alfredo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJMAC77SP View Post
    Why are you going back two pages to reply to a post you already replied to? I am even more confused now. I agree with you but as stated using the logic provided, drill is of no use in current training since it could potentially be replaced by more relevant and efficient methods. You seem to be now making the point that shaving the heads of males should stand as it too provides something that is tangible.
    I respond to the comments as they come in. I didn't "go back" and do anything. I am not making the point that shaving male heads should stand because there is nothing universal being provided. But whatever.

  5. #155
    Senior Member TJMAC77SP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt Alfredo View Post
    I respond to the comments as they come in. I didn't "go back" and do anything. I am not making the point that shaving male heads should stand because there is nothing universal being provided. But whatever.
    Sorry, confused you with our resident Thor. So you don't support shaving heads because there is nothing 'universal' being provided. Don't know exactly what you mean by that but whatever.

    How about close order drill? What does that add that isn't being or couldn't be accomplished with other military training?
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    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJMAC77SP View Post
    ... drill is of no use in current training since it could potentially be replaced by more relevant and efficient methods. ...
    There is a lot of training that is complimentary or reinforced by other training ... sometimes redundant.

    Based on my example before, as a fairly experienced infantryman acting as the patrol leader for a group composed of Marines some of who had advanced infantry training and some who had just had the basics, using terms that came out of drill training conveyed what I wanted them to do and ironically they all did what I was asking ... so it worked. If it has just been a group of infantrymen I would have used different terms. Granted, this may not be needed in the Air Force, but the original statement that started this whole mess about drill referred to the military as a whole.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

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    Senior Member TJMAC77SP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    There is a lot of training that is complimentary or reinforced by other training ... sometimes redundant.

    Based on my example before, as a fairly experienced infantryman acting as the patrol leader for a group composed of Marines some of who had advanced infantry training and some who had just had the basics, using terms that came out of drill training conveyed what I wanted them to do and ironically they all did what I was asking ... so it worked. If it has just been a group of infantrymen I would have used different terms. Granted, this may not be needed in the Air Force, but the original statement that started this whole mess about drill referred to the military as a whole.
    And I pointed out that your example is questionable. A column formation is basic to all combat training therefore having advanced training or not is irrelevant. They all would have (or should have) known what a column formation is. I can take ten US Army graduates of BCT with ten different MOS's and tell them to get in a column formation in a tactical environment and am comfortable they would be able to do so. Maybe not as quickly or efficiently as infantryman but they would get it done. The same holds true for Marines and certain AF specialties.

    Having said that I (again) completely agree with you that drill is a necessary training method and you are (again) avoiding the point being made. It is illogical to cherry pick one training method and decide that method is no longer relevant if there is no evidence that the method doesn't work, is limiting recruiting goals (which probably is one reason females aren't required to shave their heads), or is simply outdated. The point made in several posts now is using that logic one could extrapolate that to a lot of training methods used in accession training
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