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Thread: Navy Bootcamp Mulls No Longer Shaving Recruits' Heads

  1. #11
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garhkal View Post
    That's something i always hated.. Why women were allowed a full head of hair.
    Probably because they are women. They wear their hair differently than the men.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

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    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    On one hand it pisses me off that women have it easier (hair regs, PT standards, etc) ...
    Easier, you ever seen a woman with long hair put her hair up? I think males have it easier in that regard.

    As far as physical standards, they are generally built differently. I don't expect my 4 year old to carry the same load I do for the same reason/logic. On that note though, I once had my platoon (all men) run the female Physical Fitness Test; everyone did great on the run and situps, but the flexed arm hang (female norm) in lieu of doing pull ups (male norm) kicked everyone's ass.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

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    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    As far as physical standards, they are generally built differently. I don't expect my 4 year old to carry the same load I do for the same reason/logic.
    And if you read my post, that's pretty much what I said. For a moderator, your comprehension can be pretty poor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    And if you read my post, that's pretty much what I said. For a moderator, your comprehension can be pretty poor.
    I think it read it right. You said that on one had it pisses you off then explained why overall it doesn't. I don't get why it would even piss you off "on one hand" since there is a huge fundamental difference.
    Last edited by Mjölnir; 01-09-2015 at 10:03 AM.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

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    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    I think it read it right. You said that on one had it pisses you off then explained why overall it doesn't. I don't get why it would even piss you off "on one hand" since there is a huge fundamental difference.
    Glad to see someone covering AA's role while he's gone.

    Maybe how I should have said it is this way. My instinct is to say that there should be one single standard for everyone otherwise it isn't a standard. But, in reality, I'm happy there are different standards because it shows that no matter how much people talk about us all being equal and the same, the different standards show that they don't actual believe that. Women are generally the weaker (physically) sex and the standards reflect that.

    Though to add to you point about a 4 year old...I wouldn't expect a 4 year old to carry the same load. However, I also wouldn't expect a 20 year old 5' 6", 140 pound male to carry the same as a 20 year old, 6' 2", 215 pound male. But their standard is the same.

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    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    Glad to see someone covering AA's role while he's gone.
    I think I am far from that.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    Maybe how I should have said it is this way. My instinct is to say that there should be one single standard for everyone otherwise it isn't a standard.
    Concur with you 100% ... with the caveat that males and females are fundamentally different, ergo there will be (in some cases ... in this case grooming) gender specific standards. Same could be said for medical standards -- can't expect male and female medical processes to be the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    Women are generally the weaker (physically) sex and the standards reflect that.

    Though to add to you point about a 4 year old...I wouldn't expect a 4 year old to carry the same load. However, I also wouldn't expect a 20 year old 5' 6", 140 pound male to carry the same as a 20 year old, 6' 2", 215 pound male. But their standard is the same.
    Again, concur.
    Last edited by Mjölnir; 01-09-2015 at 12:57 PM.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

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    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Serious question:

    What is the actual training value of shaving all the males heads or cutting all the female's hair to the collar; both styles that the vast majority do not maintain after recruit training?
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

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    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    Serious question:

    What is the actual training value of shaving all the males heads or cutting all the female's hair to the collar; both styles that the vast majority do not maintain after recruit training?
    For The same reason they constantly scream at you in basic, or tell you what time exactly to go to bed or exactly when to get up or make you ask permission to speak. but, not after recruit training.

    Aside from the Hygiene and time aspects. It's Part of stripping away your individuality and imposing cultural uniformity on a group of individuals.

    Given the narcissistic "Selfie" culture of Americans today, I'd say it's more important than ever.
    Last edited by Rainmaker; 01-09-2015 at 02:13 PM.

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    Administrator UncaRastus's Avatar
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    Rainmaker is correct. Shaving the head is one of the first things at MCRD San Diego or MCRD Parris Island. The recruits arriving are greeted by some snarling DIs, and at PI(speaking from my experiences there), are led into the receiving barracks, where there is (was, maybe, it has been many years since I was a DI at PI) a sign that proclaims 'Abandon all hope, ye who enter here'.

    Arriving at 0200, or thereabouts, they are issued their basic gear and put into their racks, about 0330, and awakened at 0430. The haircuts are done after they wake up for the first time at bootcamp.

    Back in the day, if the recruit amount was large enough, numerically speaking, they were then sent to their training platoon. Otherwise, they had to wait a day or two until that receiving barracks platoon was full up.

    During that time, and thereafter, they were not allowed to speak to each other. They were immediately immersed in recruit training. During Sundays, no classroom training was done. No rifle range training, etc.. They were made to shine their boots, their barracks cover leather, and their belt tips and buckle, and made to study their 'Knowledge', the guidebook for Marines.

    Every day of the week except Sunday, they were PTed, taught USMC stuff, sent to the Rose Garden (a small patch of sand at the end of the squadbay) for extra PT, including Sundays. They were yelled at. They were trained to be entry level Marines.

    While I was a DI, from 50 - 70% of the recruits were either recycled or kicked out of the USMC. The platoon made up for it's recycled members by picking up recruits that had been recycled from a more advanced series. A series was made up of 4 platoons, training at the same level.

    Until they graduated, Marines were put through the maximum amount of stress.

    The primary reason for being so physically and mentally hard was to break the recruits out of their civilian mode of thinking and doing.

    Along with being hard for that reason, the other reasons are twofold.

    Being so difficult was done because, also, when one graduated, that person was most likely to immediately follow orders. Also, the graduated member was far less apt to go shy under combat situations.

    Before anyone says anything about combat being harder than bootcamp ...

    No matter how hard we pushed them, combat was and is hell. However, the now non-recruit was far better able to cope with combat situations. Not to say that we had the key to making them fearless, but we did make sure that every rock unturned was turned over to try to make our recruits as 'combat compliant' as possible.

    So, to make a long story short?

    The haircut was part of training that was used to break everyone free of their civilian thoughts.

    As a sidenote, I must say that no matter how small a Marine might be, that Marine does have to carry the same load as the biggest Marine in his platoon. I have a Marine friend whose son weighs in at 143 pounds. That Marine is a grunt. He doesn't get a break for being a smaller Marine. He has to carry the same gear that every one else has to carry.

    90 - 140 pounds is the normal load. If a Marine is on guard duty, he carries a much smaller load, so when I say a normal load, I mean the amount that Marines have to carry for much of the time, as an 0311.

    All of the aforesaid was normal for the early 1970s. I can't fully speak for today's bootcamp, but I do think that as a whole, my statements probably are still valid.

  10. #20
    Administrator Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UncaRastus View Post
    Rainmaker is correct. Shaving the head is one of the first things at MCRD San Diego or MCRD Parris Island.
    When I went to MCRD San Diego, it was the very first thing after we got off the bus.

    **I wasn't arguing against doing away with haircuts ... but trying to get a better response than "don't change it cause I don't like change."
    The most important six inches on the battlefield ... is between your ears.

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