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Thread: Abortion Topic

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    Abortion Topic

    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    This type of question shows how messed up our party system is. Someone can be liberal or conservative on almost everything but if they don't follow stereotypical party lines on everything there their "allegiance" to the party is questioned.
    The stances of each party don't even follow logic.

    The party that supports killing people (abortion) wants to limit your gun rights in the name of saving lives.

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    Senior Member Absinthe Anecdote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SomeRandomGuy View Post
    The stances of each party don't even follow logic.

    The party that supports killing people (abortion) wants to limit your gun rights in the name of saving lives.
    Even worse, there are liberals that will kill a fetus, but not a convicted murderer.

    Someone please explain that one to me.

    I have what some people call liberal views on many issues, but I'll split from the left on some.

    Abortion and capital punishment being two of them.
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    Saying people who are Pro Choice believe it's alright to kill a fetus, is like saying Pro Gun people believe it's alright to kill people. They are bigger issues than that. If you asked me if I would abort a baby of my own...I would say no, but I believe in a person's right to chose for themselves. If you asked if I owned a gun...I'd say no, but I believe that people should be able to own guns. You can't simplify these issues down to whether or not you believe people (or fetuses) can be killed, because that doesn't really speak to the issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MERC8401 View Post
    Saying people who are Pro Choice believe it's alright to kill a fetus, is like saying Pro Gun people believe it's alright to kill people. They are bigger issues than that. If you asked me if I would abort a baby of my own...I would say no, but I believe in a person's right to chose for themselves. If you asked if I owned a gun...I'd say no, but I believe that people should be able to own guns. You can't simplify these issues down to whether or not you believe people (or fetuses) can be killed, because that doesn't really speak to the issue.
    Oh yeah? Wouldn't it be more like you personally wouldn't kill a person with a gun but you believe others should have the right to do so?

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    Senior Member Absinthe Anecdote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MERC8401 View Post
    Saying people who are Pro Choice believe it's alright to kill a fetus, is like saying Pro Gun people believe it's alright to kill people. They are bigger issues than that. If you asked me if I would abort a baby of my own...I would say no, but I believe in a person's right to chose for themselves. If you asked if I owned a gun...I'd say no, but I believe that people should be able to own guns. You can't simplify these issues down to whether or not you believe people (or fetuses) can be killed, because that doesn't really speak to the issue.
    That is so convoluted that I'm having trouble following it. I'm not sure why you added gun control to my comparison either. Talk about that later.

    Let me rephrase my question slightly.

    There are some liberals who support the killing of fetuses, as a matter of personal choice.
    They call themselves Pro Choice advocates, sounds harmless, but they are legally sanctioning the termination of life.

    Some of these same liberals vehemently oppose capital punishment of convicted murderers because they deem it cruel and inhumane.

    This is what I don't understand.

    They will support killing a fetus, but not a hardened criminal?

    Sorry, but that is bonkers in my opinion.

    Kill both, or let both live. That makes sense to me.

    If only one gets to live it should be the baby.

    Killing the baby, and letting the criminal live is just plain bonkers.

    Which is why I have a hard time understanding liberals who are Pro Choice, but opposed to the death penalty.

    Explain that twisted viewpoint if you can.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe Anecdote View Post
    That is so convoluted that I'm having trouble following it. I'm not sure why you added gun control to my comparison either. Talk about that later.

    Let me rephrase my question slightly.

    There are some liberals who support the killing of fetuses, as a matter of personal choice.
    They call themselves Pro Choice advocates, sounds harmless, but they are legally sanctioning the termination of life.

    Some of these same liberals vehemently oppose capital punishment of convicted murderers because they deem it cruel and inhumane.

    This is what I don't understand.

    They will support killing a fetus, but not a hardened criminal?

    Sorry, but that is bonkers in my opinion.

    Kill both, or let both live. That makes sense to me.
    So, you think someone who is against abortion, but for the death penalty is a hypocrite...or what?

    That is some twisted logic, you have, methinks. Surely someone in favor of the death penalty does not need to be in favor of all killing...

    If only one gets to live it should be the baby.

    Killing the baby, and letting the criminal live is just plain bonkers.

    Which is why I have a hard time understanding liberals who are Pro Choice, but opposed to the death penalty.

    Explain that twisted viewpoint if you can.
    I'll take a stab at it.

    The abortion issue...is not a matter being in favor of killing babies, it's a matter of a woman's freedom over the most basic of all things someone needs freedom for...her own body.

    I'll try to put this in another light to see if you can grasp the concept.

    Let's say you have a brother who has failing kidneys. He desperately needs a kidney to be able to survive and you are identified as the only possible donor. Should you be compelled by the law to give up one of your kidneys to ensure your brother's life is saved? Yes, most of us would want to save our brother's life, if we could...but, that's not the question of whether most people would do it. Maybe you'd be a horrible person for letting your brother die, I don't know...maybe you hate the guy, maybe he destroyed his kidneys using drugs...blah blah...none of that matters. If it helps, pretend it's a stranger and not your brother....maybe it's bone marrow and not a kidney...the details don't matter, it's whether or not the govt. has the right to order you what to do with your body. The question is, should the LAW require you to give up that kidney against your will, does your brother have the "right to life" or should you have the "right to choose"?

    Rather than waste everyone's time explaining why this isn't a perfect analogy...just answer the question. We know it's not a perfect analogy, but the underlying principle is what liberals see as the central issue in abortion...freedom over her own body, and not the death of the fetus. It is an unfortunate fact of biology that a fetus needs another's body to survive...similarly, it might be an unfortunate fact for your brother, or some random stranger, knock on wood, god forbid.

    How about a medically dead person...should the govt. be able to force everyone to be organ donors to save lives? I personally believe in being an organ donor...but some people don't. Would you support a law that makes everyone mandatory organ donors because someone esle has a "right to live" using available technology?

    my personal opinion, is if you're going to have an abortion, do it in the first couple weeks...I guess I don't see that as a human life yet. I'm not in favor of late-term abortions...that really turns my stomach...I struggle with the outlawing part though because freedom of one's own body is the most basic freedom out there. If we don't have that...we don't have any freedoms

    I'm not sure of your position...but one I would love to get an explanation from is people who believe abortion is killing, but are okay with it in the case of rape and incest. THAT is some twisted logic...you either believe it's killing or it isn't...why is it okay to kill someone whose mother was raped? If you believe killing a fetus is the same as killing a person living outside the womb, why is it okay for a rape? If the child is 4 years old before you discover he is the child of a rape, is it still okay to kill him?

    OTOH...if you are against all abortions in any circumstances...how do you justify legally compelling a woman to carry a baby to term after being raped by the father?

    Yes...twisted logic on all counts.

    The death penalty...I'm not necessarily against the death penalty, so I can't really argue compassionately against it. I could be wrong, but I think most people against the death penalty are against it because the legal system makes mistakes...and once you kill someone you can't "make it right"...not that you really can after someone served 20 of their prime years either, but you can try. I am sort of in that camp.

    Personally, I think there needs to be a higher burden of proof before we sentence someone to death. I don't think proof beyond a reasonable doubt is good enough. There needs to be proof beyond any shadow of doubt...as in, the guy was caught in the act...or witnessed by someone who knows him...I'm talking cases where this is no doubt a crime was committed and we grabbed the guy at the scene doing it, type of proof. Even eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable...which is why I say the eyewitness needs to know the person...not enough that this looks like the guy that did it. It should be, I know Bob, and I saw Bob stabbing his wife, and I shouted "Bob, stop"...whatever.

    For example, the Scott Peterson guy who was convicted and sentenced to death for killing his wife Laci Peterson...I believe he did it, I believe he deserves life in prision, but I'm not comfortable with the level of proof enough to sentence him to death. He wasn't caught "red-handed" so to speak...and while there may not be reasonable doubt, there is some unreasonable doubt....unreasonable things happen sometimes.
    Last edited by Measure Man; 11-19-2014 at 04:47 PM.

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    @Measure Man

    Thanks for taking the time to give such a detailed response.

    I'm in a bit of a rush, so I can't dissect your response line by line. However, I don't think I need to.

    My personal opinion on abortions isn't that far off from yours, but that is beside the point.

    My observation has more to do with how the planks of a political platform are selected, and how they aren't consistent.

    I noticed how you shifted the salient point in the abortion issue from the death of a developing baby, to a woman's personal choice. That is a great debate tactic, you are shifting the discussion to focus on a aspect of the issue that you can better defend.

    I don't fault you for that, but I would like to point out that the baby pays the price for the woman's right to choose when she opts for abortion. The baby pays with its life every time an abortion happens, and there is no way around that.

    Which is why I don't get how a Pro Choice advocate can vehemently oppose the death penalty.

    Sure, there are intricate variables in these issues, but ultimately we are talking about extinguishing human life.

    A person who is willing to allow a baby to be aborted should be ok with executing a criminal.

    However, there is a substantial block of the left wing that will not support the death penalty under any circumstance, yet they will go to great lengths to support abortion.

    That is what I find absurd.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe Anecdote View Post
    @Measure Man

    Thanks for taking the time to give such a detailed response.

    I'm in a bit of a rush, so I can't dissect your response line by line. However, I don't think I need to.

    My personal opinion on abortions isn't that far off from yours, but that is beside the point.

    My observation has more to do with how the planks of a political platform are selected, and how they aren't consistent.
    I would agree that Conservatives are not consistently conservative and Liberals are not consistently liberal. In fact, I would most of what people assign to "Liberals" today is not liberal at all...quite the opposite, in fact. Many of the steadfast political positions of the different "sides" have more to do with opposing an opponent than sticking with principles. Which is why conservatives who argued for Romney-care type healthcare now feel the same thing under the Obama name is the worst thing to ever happen to America.

    Likewise...why Conservatives who claim to be for small government and minimal govt interference want the govt. to tell people what they can do with their bodies and who they can marry and have sex with, etc.

    I noticed how you shifted the salient point in the abortion issue from the death of a developing baby, to a woman's personal choice. That is a great debate tactic, you are shifting the discussion to focus on a aspect of the issue that you can better defend.
    I would disagree that this is a "debate tactic"...it is the central issue for liberals. You asked for how liberals can believe the way they do and I told you. They view the important point as freedom to choose what to do with your own body without government interference. hence the term "pro choice"

    I might not be personally in favor of aborting babies...but, don't think I have to right to impose that on other's.

    I could be "Pro Freedom of Speech" but detest the fact that some people use that to burn the US Flag and espouse Nazism. I may be uncomfortable or even morally opposed to their message, but be Pro Choice in the freedom to do so.

    I don't fault you for that, but I would like to point out that the baby pays the price for the woman's right to choose when she opts for abortion. The baby pays with its life every time an abortion happens, and there is no way around that.
    This is the crux of the debate I suppose. You do not argue over the government's ability to tell someone what to do with their body because you can't defend it. You know it would be an inconscionable imposition for the govt to force you to give up a kidney, so you don't answer that question...shifting the debate instead to the "killing of babies" when there is no moral consensus that this is what abortion is.

    It comes to the matter of whether or not the blastocyst, embryo, or fetus qualifies as a "human life" or not. You are assuming that liberals hold the same definition as you do...that abortion of a fetus equals killing of a human life. I don't think they hold that same belief. If your feelings are similar to mine, I would gather you do not consider the group of cells 5 days after conception to be a human life...not everyone agrees with us there.

    If we can not covince each other from a moral perspective on what constitutes a human life...outlawing abortion is merely government intervention into the use of one's body.

    Look at it this way...being for Anti-Abortion legislation is akin to saying, "We have failed to convince everyone with a moral argument, so we must impose our beliefs under coercion of the law"...not a very conservative position.

    Which is why I don't get how a Pro Choice advocate can vehemently oppose the death penalty.
    Some people believe human life starts at conception, some people don't. But, I'm pretty sure all people believe a grown adult is a human life.

    Sure, there are intricate variables in these issues, but ultimately we are talking about extinguishing human life.
    I don't think "we" are all talking about that...that is the problem. Conservatives are talking about that...Liberals are talking about the freedom to use the life they have been given as they see fit.

    A person who is willing to allow a baby to be aborted should be ok with executing a criminal.

    However, there is a substantial block of the left wing that will not support the death penalty under any circumstance, yet they will go to great lengths to support abortion.

    That is what I find absurd.
    Well, I gave it my best shot to explain the logic.

    Do you have to support govt harvesting of organs to oppose the death penalty too?
    Last edited by Measure Man; 11-19-2014 at 06:15 PM.

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    wtf, I click on first page, we have 1 mistake air force advocates bitching about a pt test, skip to last page we are killing fetus's wtf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt HULK View Post
    wtf, I click on first page, we have 1 mistake air force advocates bitching about a pt test, skip to last page we are killing fetus's wtf
    Funny stuff, right there.

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