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Thread: Abortion Topic

  1. #21
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    The man and woman should decide that together, without any interference from the government (family courts)

    If a woman wants the freedom to decide what to do with her body, then a man should have the freedom to decide what to do with his paycheck...
    Ah yes, the "financial abortion." As much as I'd love to see that happen, it's not going to.

    How about the male birth control pill? Supposedly, that's been around for over a decade, but the FDA won't approve it. That alone should tell you a couple of things.

    The MGTOW movement was the only thing left to resort to.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
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    Senior Member USN - Retired's Avatar
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    Is it fair and accurate to say that an abortion is not in the best interest of the unborn child?
    As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    I'm not scolding you. I have no children, and I got snipped years ago, so I don't have a dog in this fight. I do find the subject fascinating though.
    It is fascinating. I honostly never thought of it from a man's rights point of view until a friend of mine brought it up several years ago.

  4. #24
    Senior Member USN - Retired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Ah yes, the "financial abortion." As much as I'd love to see that happen, it's not going to.
    I do agree with you on that point (seriously). It is a great idea that will never happen.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    How about the male birth control pill? Supposedly, that's been around for over a decade, but the FDA won't approve it. That alone should tell you a couple of things.

    The MGTOW movement was the only thing left to resort to.
    A vasectomy is always an option. I got one many years ago. The military wouldn't give me a vasectomy because I have no children. I had to go to a civilian doctor to get the vasectomy.
    As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others

  5. #25
    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post

    A vasectomy is always an option. I got one many years ago. The military wouldn't give me a vasectomy because I have no children. I had to go to a civilian doctor to get the vasectomy.
    It is definitely an option. However, as birth control goes, it's pretty permanent. Of course, it can be reversed, but that's another surgery.

    I think the government should force my healthcare company to cover the cost of condoms.

    The other option? Don't bang chicks you don't want to get pregnant.

  6. #26
    Senior Member LogDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USN - Retired View Post
    Is it fair and accurate to say that an abortion is not in the best interest of the unborn child?
    This is a good example of a "loaded" question because it presupposes the fetus is a child. At what point does the fetus become a child; when the fertilized egg divides into two cells, a hundred cells, when it can be seen on a sonogram or x-ray, etc?

    Some people believe the point conception is when the "fetus" becomes a child while others believe the fetus has to be more fully developed to be considered a child and still others believe the fetus becomes a child only upon birth.

    How do you write laws that are strict enough to discourage abortions but are still flexible enough allow women to decide if an abortion is in their best interests. I support the right of women to determine the abortion question for themselves but I also think at a certain point there is a "point of no return" where the fetus is developed to the point it could survive outside the womb. I can't define at what point that is so I would defer to medical expertise.

    This is still a woman's decision and I doubt there are many women who made the decision to have an abortion didn't think it through. You and I may agree or disagree with their decision but we're not the one who have to make that decision or live with the consequences of it.

  7. #27
    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogDog View Post
    This is a good example of a "loaded" question because it presupposes the fetus is a child. At what point does the fetus become a child; when the fertilized egg divides into two cells, a hundred cells, when it can be seen on a sonogram or x-ray, etc?

    Some people believe the point conception is when the "fetus" becomes a child while others believe the fetus has to be more fully developed to be considered a child and still others believe the fetus becomes a child only upon birth.

    How do you write laws that are strict enough to discourage abortions but are still flexible enough allow women to decide if an abortion is in their best interests. I support the right of women to determine the abortion question for themselves but I also think at a certain point there is a "point of no return" where the fetus is developed to the point it could survive outside the womb. I can't define at what point that is so I would defer to medical expertise.

    This is still a woman's decision and I doubt there are many women who made the decision to have an abortion didn't think it through. You and I may agree or disagree with their decision but we're not the one who have to make that decision or live with the consequences of it.
    You are wrong about this. We are the ones who also have to live with the consequences. If the couple stays together, the guy is still a would-be father who may have wanted children very much. If the couple does not stay together, the father is responsible for paying the bills. The question is, is the financial responsibility associated with the man on the same level as the emotional issues related with the woman (in general)? The are definitely consequences associated with each person.

    Here's another question. Do you think women would be so quick to get an abortion if the men were the ones who gained custody the majority of the time? Do they generally choose that rout because the are afraid of the responsibilities of raising the child alone?

    There are so many issues to this topic that go in so many different directions: Men's vs. women's rights; scientific definitions; the baby's right; the religious arguments; the discussion on what's best for different situations based on the ability of the parent/s to raise the child properly; etc. It goes on and on.

    There's only one way to avoid these arguments altogether. Don't get someone pregnant in the first place if the two of you aren't ready to have a child together. There are too many ways to avoid it for it to still be an "oops" situation.

  8. #28
    Senior Member LogDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    You are wrong about this. We are the ones who also have to live with the consequences. If the couple stays together, the guy is still a would-be father who may have wanted children very much. If the couple does not stay together, the father is responsible for paying the bills. The question is, is the financial responsibility associated with the man on the same level as the emotional issues related with the woman (in general)? The are definitely consequences associated with each person.
    You missed the point of what a loaded question is. USN_Retired said: Is it fair and accurate to say that an abortion is not in the best interest of the unborn child? and he is defining the fetus as a child. By making that assumption he is saying everyone agrees the fetus is a child.

    Another good example of a loaded question is "Do you still beat your wife." The question isn't whether you beat your wife but it assumes you have beaten your wife. So with USN_Retired, he is saying the issue of a fetus is a child is settled when it is not.

    As for your economic question, those are social and legal issues aside from the issue of abortion and addresses issues after the fetus has been born.

    You also imply the woman is operating on an emotional level throughout this process whereas the man is operating on a rational level. Your implications are not supported with any facts or logic.

    Here's another question. Do you think women would be so quick to get an abortion if the men were the ones who gained custody the majority of the time? Do they generally choose that rout because the are afraid of the responsibilities of raising the child alone?
    I don't know so how about you finding out if there are studies that address that question and report back to us on your findings?

    There are so many issues to this topic that go in so many different directions: Men's vs. women's rights; scientific definitions; the baby's right; the religious arguments; the discussion on what's best for different situations based on the ability of the parent/s to raise the child properly; etc. It goes on and on.
    I agree. Humans makes things so messy and after thousands of years of civilization you'd think we would have solved these problems.

    There's only one way to avoid these arguments altogether. Don't get someone pregnant in the first place if the two of you aren't ready to have a child together. There are too many ways to avoid it for it to still be an "oops" situation.
    Ideally, that's a great idea but when you're dealing with humans, especially males and females of child bearing ages, logical behavior gives way to hormonal urges.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Absinthe Anecdote's Avatar
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    The second an egg is fertilized by sperm it is life.

    If you kill those rapidly developing cells, you are terminating a human life. Why the fuck should it matter that the human in question is at the very early stages of development?

    We all know abortion is killing. Let's all stop being cowards and admit to at least that much.

    Is it ever honorable to kill? Sometimes.

    Is it ever honorable to kill a newborn baby?

    Never, in my book.

    Is it ever honorable to kill a baby in the very early stages of development? Nope.

    However, I do acknowledge that there are a few, very rare, circumstances where I would say it is not dishonorable.

    That is just my personal view, the question of legality is a different matter.

    But let's stop this bullshit about an embryo not being life. That is just coward talk that enables baby killers.

    If you want to be a baby killer, fine, just admit to it. You'll be in good company, even the Christian god is a baby killer. Heck, god has slaughtered tens of thousands of babies, maybe millions.

    Go read the bible if you don't believe me.

    Just have to courage to admit that you are killing.
    All behold that fancy strutting peacock, the bake sale diva...

  10. #30
    Senior Member USN - Retired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogDog View Post
    You missed the point of what a loaded question is. USN_Retired said: Is it fair and accurate to say that an abortion is not in the best interest of the unborn child? and he is defining the fetus as a child. By making that assumption he is saying everyone agrees the fetus is a child.
    Then I'll change my question....

    Is it fair and accurate to say that an abortion is not in the best interest of the unborn human offspring?

    Is it still a loaded question?
    As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others

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