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Thread: Marine held in phillipines after death of transgendered person

  1. #21
    Senior Member TJMAC77SP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Just because you don't understand or agree with it, doesn't make it a fail. That's just your own personal issue to deal with.
    I completely understood what you were saying and do disagree with it. Hence why I said you are wrong. No personal issue at all. You have an opinion of fact. I have an opinion of fact which believes you are wrong. Which of us seems to have a personal issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Dude, get the fuck outta here with that shit. As usual, you didn't read what I wrote properly.



    Re-read what I said. You should have gathered, from what I said, that whether or not they've had sex would determine the motive. Put yourself in PFC Pemberton's shoes. If you do not hate gays, and you found out before making any physical contact with Jennifer Laude that it was a man, then the reaction would be simple - you walk away and get the hell out of there. However - even if you don't hate gays - if you, as a heterosexual man, found out AFTER the fact... you're probably going to hurt that person. Maybe not KILL them, but you're probably going to hurt them. Does that mean you hate gays? No - you're pissed, because you just got duped into mining a hiney.

    Now getting back to the scenario before making any sexual contact, if you hurt them... then yes, that's a hate crime - since the only possible motive in that case would be hate towards gays. You and I are saying the same thing.
    Get the fuck out of here with common sense and logic. No thanks. I have read what you said several times. The same conclusion remains. You are wrong. It's your opinion, I get that. You are welcome to it.

    You are however, making huge and unsupported assumptions, evidently based on what you believe your own reaction would be. That doesn't make it logical.

    Some people may walk away after having sex and hope no one ever finds out. Some might walk out when the 'package' makes its' appearance.

    Some might kill her after having sex. Some might kill her for merely attempting to have sex.

    You have (which is no surprise to me at all) abandoned your professed liberalism here. While amusing me for the past couple of days it nonetheless does not negate the fact that you apparently do not have a concept of what a hate crime is and what the legal hurdle is to label it such.
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  2. #22
    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJMAC77SP View Post
    Aside from the logic fail, as I said, you don't seem to really understand what a hate crime is.

    The root of the question is why he killed her. Not whether they had sex. If it were solely based on whether they had sex there could be no hate crime

    That might have played a part in his ultimate action but if his motivation was her sexual orientation then that is the predicated prejudice and thus a hate crime (subject to the court's ruling of course).

    Let's look at your premise......" PFC Pemberton killed his victim because he was deceived into having sex with someone that he otherwise would not have had sex with" Why wouldn't he have had sex with her? Because he doesn't have sex with men and she is gay? Prejudiced (or biased) motivation. Hate crime.

    "If they did not have sex, then PFC Pemberton killed his victim because of their sexual orientation"..........Prejudiced (or biased) motivation. Hate crime
    Not sure I see the logic fail there. It's the difference between a guy killing a woman because he hates women or a guy who kills a woman because she gave him a condom that she sabotaged and got pregnant. Just because she is a woman doesn't make it a hate crime. It's the reason for the killing that is the issue.

  3. #23
    Senior Member TJMAC77SP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    Not sure I see the logic fail there. It's the difference between a guy killing a woman because he hates women or a guy who kills a woman because she gave him a condom that she sabotaged and got pregnant. Just because she is a woman doesn't make it a hate crime. It's the reason for the killing that is the issue.
    Exactly, the reason for the killing, not whether or not, by itself, they had sex or not.

    I am not actually saying it is a hate crime. I am saying that the mere fact of whether they had sex or not is irrelevant. My stating 'hate crime' was to illustrate the logic fail in tying the presence of a hate crime on the sex act alone.

    Having said that they argument could be made that it is indeed a hate crime based on the biased motivation of the Marine and his feelings about homosexuality. Quite frankly we don't know enough based on the information released.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJMAC77SP View Post
    Exactly, the reason for the killing, not whether or not, by itself, they had sex or not.
    Well...the reason for the killing, yes, is key to whether or not it is a hate crime.

    Whether or not the victim did something to the suspect personally (deceived him into sex)...is certainly relevant information in trying to sort out his reason for killing her.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Measure Man View Post
    Well...the reason for the killing, yes, is key to whether or not it is a hate crime.

    Whether or not the victim did something to the suspect personally (deceived him into sex)...is certainly relevant information in trying to sort out his reason for killing her.
    TJ simply likes to disagree me and, in doing so, likes to use terms like "logic fail" in order to position himself as some kind of "authority." He'd better go take a fucking seat somewhere with that shit.
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  6. #26
    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJMAC77SP View Post
    Exactly, the reason for the killing, not whether or not, by itself, they had sex or not.

    I am not actually saying it is a hate crime. I am saying that the mere fact of whether they had sex or not is irrelevant. My stating 'hate crime' was to illustrate the logic fail in tying the presence of a hate crime on the sex act alone.

    Having said that they argument could be made that it is indeed a hate crime based on the biased motivation of the Marine and his feelings about homosexuality. Quite frankly we don't know enough based on the information released.
    I'm going to work with a stereotype here in order to make my point. If my accountant ends up stealing millions of dollars from me and I kill him, does that make it a hate crime? What about if I'm anti-Semitic and my accountant happens to be Jewish, does that change things? If I kill him because he's Jewish then, yes, it's a hate crime. If I kill him because he deceived me and happens to be Jewish then the answer is no. Good luck proving one way or the other.

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    Senior Member Absinthe Anecdote's Avatar
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    I have no trouble jumping to the conclusion that the Marine was drunk, probably very drunk, and that had more to do with why he overreacted and killed this person.

    I'm also jumping to the conclusion that they went to the hotel for sex, and that it was a paid for encounter.

    The violence could have easily started as a squabble over money.

    To me, that seems like the likely scenario.

    As long as I'm jumping to conclusions, I'll say that I think it is very unlikely that he was duped into having a sexual encounter with a transsexual. Despite my assumption that the Marine was very drunk, these ladies are usually found in very specific places, and it is very obvious to even drunk customers what kind of prostitutes are on staff.

    However, let's say I'm wrong about him being duped. That's still not a reason for him to beat another person to death.
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  8. #28
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe Anecdote View Post
    I have no trouble jumping to the conclusion that the Marine was drunk, probably very drunk, and that had more to do with why he overreacted and killed this person.

    I'm also jumping to the conclusion that they went to the hotel for sex, and that it was a paid for encounter.

    The violence could have easily started as a squabble over money.

    To me, that seems like the likely scenario.

    As long as I'm jumping to conclusions, I'll say that I think it is very unlikely that he was duped into having a sexual encounter with a transsexual. Despite my assumption that the Marine was very drunk, these ladies are usually found in very specific places, and it is very obvious to even drunk customers what kind of prostitutes are on staff.

    However, let's say I'm wrong about him being duped. That's still not a reason for him to beat another person to death.
    What we do know so far, from the information that's been released, is that the sex of the victim is what led to the murder - not money. We also know that they did go the hotel for sex (but not whether or not they actually had sex), as the name of the hotel that they checked into is even mentioned.

    I'm actually curious as to how many of you here could actually find out after the fact you just got duped into having sex with a man (and the man is still in the room when you figured this out), and then go on about your day like nothing happened.
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  9. #29
    Senior Member Absinthe Anecdote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    What we do know so far, from the information that's been released, is that the sex of the victim is what led to the murder - not money. We also know that they did go the hotel for sex (but not whether or not they actually had sex), as the name of the hotel that they checked into is even mentioned.

    I'm actually curious as to how many of you here could actually find out after the fact you just got duped into having sex with a man (and the man is still in the room when you figured this out), and then go on about your day like nothing happened.
    What are you saying? It was justified homicide?

    I doubt you are saying that. Are you saying that it is a mitigating factor?

    I don't think this Marine committed First Degree Murder, but Second or Third Degree Murder.

    He doesn't deserve a free pass even if he was duped. I hope you aren't claiming that.

    In my opinion, if you are going to go out and party in Thailand or the PI, put on your big boy pants.

    Stories of ladyboys in these places are legendary, and if you end up in a hotel room with one, it shouldn't be an automatic death sentence for the ladyboy.

    Fuck, that Marine should take it as a lesson learned. He had no right to give the ladyboy even a beating, much less kill him.

    He killed a person. Why?

    Because he went out got drunk, and then got into a situation that he handled very badly, and another person died as the result.

    Fuck him, I don't feel sorry for him at all.

    I sure as hell bet that this Marine, as he sits in the brig of his ship contemplating an uncertain future, is wishing that he went about his day like nothing happened.

    He'd be much better off right now if he had done just that.

    You don't think the onus is on the Marine to have a ounce of fucking street smarts when out partying in a place like the PI?
    Last edited by Absinthe Anecdote; 10-17-2014 at 01:11 PM.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    I'm actually curious as to how many of you here could actually find out after the fact you just got duped into having sex with a man (and the man is still in the room when you figured this out), and then go on about your day like nothing happened.
    No, you grab your shit, get out of there...go home and take a long shower and throw your clothes away, then try to pretend like nothing happened, locking yourself in your room for the next week watching the Outlaw Josey Wales and building model battleships, pausing occasionally to cry softly into your pillow...let out one good scream and commit to drinking less, then go to confession.

    I mean, I guess someone might do that.

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