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Thread: Author Suggest Jesus Never Existed After Finding No Mention Of Him In Historical Text

  1. #61
    Senior Member E4RUMOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe Anecdote View Post
    I am judging god by his book of teachings that he supposedly left for us.
    It is the only way he has ever seen fit to communicate with humanity as far as I can see.

    So yes, of course I judge it and him. So do you.

    If he is so smart, then why are there so many fundamental flaws in his book?

    He acted as a barbaric tyrant in the Old Testament, and not much better in the New Testament.

    Don't tell me that you also don't judge certain aspects of the Christain bible, because I am sure there are certain parts that you choose to ignore.

    Yes, I judge the so called word of god, and I'm sure you do too. Which denomination did you choose? You made a judgement right there, didn't you?

    If god is so perfect, then why can't he figure out a better way to communicate his message to us lowly mortals?

    Surely a being that has all knowledge, as you claim, could have put a bible on the earth that isn't so controversial and been transcribed in so many different languages that it sparks so much disagreement. We have all these different sects of Christainity because of how the bible evolved over the development of the Christain Church.

    New versions and new translations are even being written right now.

    BTW, you said you don't believe in Allah. You do realize that the god of Islam and the god of Christainity are the same, don't you?
    In answer to some of your questions, I don't subscribe to a specific denomination of Christianity. I'm considered Non-Denominational. You're talking about doctrine - the interpretation of scripture... not scripture itself. That's why there's many different denominations of Christianity .

    Allah and the God of the Bible ARE NOT the same.

    I have questions about Scripture, and some things I don't understand. That much is true. However, instead of becoming extremely arrogant, I remember, "Trust the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your path."

    Just because God exists doesn't mean I'm required to know everything about Him. When in doubt, I lean on Him.

    Absinthe, Scripture is loaded with examples of God communicating with people directly, and their hearts were still turned from Him. You're practicing projection again. The way God communicates is not the way YOU would communicate, ergo, God must not exist, or God is not perfect, etc.,.

    What blows my mind, and I'll say it again - and I notice you keep avoiding THESE particular points I bring up - If you are atheist, it means you follow a worldview which subscribes to subjective morality. If all morality is subjective, how can YOU judge the God of the Bible and pronounce with certainty for all Believers their God is corrupt, immoral, etc.?

    It's YOUR opinion based upon how morality flows in the atheist worldview. However, you also admitted you could be wrong about everything you know too... so it follows you could be wrong professing to be an atheist, meaning God CAN exist in your worldview. So not only have you given up on knowledge by claiming that, but your worldview also forces you to accept your definition of what is moral (right, and wrong), as merely an opinion.

    Lastly, as I mentioned before: you cannot truly hate something or someone which does not exist.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Watch out; he's probably going to come back with the "moon god" thing that so many fundies actually buy into (but has been debunked time and again).
    Rusty, you gave up on knowledge a long time ago. Past discussions with you have already revealed your continual trend of self- defeating arguments, especially in the realm of Christian theology. Engaging in a full debate or discussion with you regarding this particular topic, or anything remotely associated with it would be a waste of time, and is not worthy of serious consideration. Your best bet is to stay where you are, and do your part by continuing to feed the emotional volition of self professed non-believers, so you have someone to keep you company.
    Last edited by E4RUMOR; 11-01-2014 at 08:06 AM.
    [B]SSgt Mike / USMC[/B]

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  2. #62
    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe Anecdote View Post
    Even a users manual for a washing machine is more effective at communicating simple instructions, than the bible is.

    If the bible is the literary work of the Supreme Being of the Universe, then I think we are in a world of shit.

    I suspect quite a few ancient scribes dropped the ball in scribbling down the old scripture.

    A perfect being would not leave such shoddy instructions in his own name, would he?

    Wouldn't he have rained down fire and brimstone on us for screwing up the bible so bad?

    Look what god did to Sodom and Gomorrah, and they didn't do anything half as bad as messing up his Holy Book.

    They were just occasionally duping each other, and they tried to gang rape a couple of incognito angels.

    How can god not hold all these churches accountable for screwing up his words?

    Hmmm, don't you think it is about time for god to speak for himself?
    "To you it has been given to know the mystery of God, but to those outside, everything is in parables." (Mark 4)

    It's not supposed to be simple as washing machine instructions. It's Designed to be a mystery. That way you have to search. If it was as easy as a reading an owners manual what fun would that be? If life was all Cherubs playing harps.. it'd be boring as Hell. These are stories told to the uninitiated. You have to admit God Smiting a bunch of pervert fags for trying to rape incognito angels makes for pretty good theater.

    "Great indeed is the Mystery of our religion."

    You're a smart dude. and The kingdom is within...so, look deeper into the hidden meaning.

    The Truth does not answer to Reason.

    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Truth


    you've unplugged yourself from the evangelical nut jobs.. we're all running the race and the race is long...don't quit running as soon as you finish the beginning... Gno-mesayin?..
    Last edited by Rainmaker; 11-03-2014 at 09:50 PM.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Absinthe Anecdote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E4RUMOR View Post
    In answer to some of your questions, I don't subscribe to a specific denomination of Christianity. I'm considered Non-Denominational. You're talking about doctrine - the interpretation of scripture... not scripture itself. That's why there's many different denominations of Christianity .
    Yes, I've noticed that most non-denominational churches don't really get into scripture that much.**They look at the story of Jesus in a vacuum, and rarely connect it to the Old Testament.

    By the way, the reason that doctrine derived from the interpretation of scripture is so problematic, is because the scripture isn't holy, or divine. It is merely folk lore.


    Allah and the God of the Bible ARE NOT the same.
    Oh!**How wrong you are...

    Christianity arose from Judaism, the Jewish faith traces back to the God of Abraham, as does the Islamic faith.

    That is why Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are commonly called the Abrahamic Religions.

    The Muslim God, like the Jewish God, initially demanded that Abraham sacrifice a son. But the Muslim God wanted Abraham’s son Ishmael, not Isaac, who Jewish tradition holds was offered as a the sacrifice.

    There is no Trinity in Muslim tradition. Jesus was a prophet, but no more divine than other prophets.
    For Muslims, all true prophets in Jewish and Christian traditions were actually Muslim because they knew to submit correctly to God. Differences between Muslim, Jewish and Christian interpretations of God are due to errors that crept into the other two faiths, according to Islamic teachings.

    I can see how much you focus on your religion's history and relevance in that non-denominational church.

    This is basic stuff, you should know this.

    I have questions about Scripture, and some things I don't understand. That much is true. However, instead of becoming extremely arrogant, I remember, "Trust the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your path."
    So you stop trying to understand what is going on in that scripture, and say a silly prayer. Is that about the size of it?

    Next time, how about challenging yourself to learn more about your god's scripture, the history of it, and it's relevance to the modern world.


    Just because God exists doesn't mean I'm required to know everything about Him. When in doubt, I lean on Him.
    How about at least learning about the history of your scripture, how it came into being.

    Learn about the history of Christianity; how the early Christian church developed is a fascinating story.

    Aren't you curious?**


    Absinthe, Scripture is loaded with examples of God communicating with people directly, and their hearts were still turned from Him.
    Why did he stop communicating directly? Why did he turn to having humans write down his stories. If he divinely inspired these stories, then why aren't they better? Why does so much confusion and controversy surround their transcription and translation?

    Could it be that God is just a character from Bronze Age folklore?


    You're practicing projection again. The way God communicates is not the way YOU would communicate, ergo, God must not exist, or God is not perfect, etc.,.
    I have no idea what practicing projection is. Do you mean that I'm trying to forecast the future?

    So how does God communicate? Through ancient texts, and through people's hearts?

    For a perfect, all-powerful being, he certainly is ambiguous, isn't he?

    Couldn't it be he is just another tall tale from folk lore, like Paul Bunyan and Babe, the Blue Ox?

    What blows my mind, and I'll say it again - and I notice you keep avoiding THESE particular points I bring up - If you are atheist, it means you follow a worldview which subscribes to subjective morality. If all morality is subjective, how can YOU judge the God of the Bible and pronounce with certainty for all Believers their God is corrupt, immoral, etc.?
    So with God, morality ceases to be subjective?

    Man, you can't even decide which particular scripture to follow, you are non-denominational. If you can't decide which particular version of the bible to follow, you expect me to believe you have mastered every single moral question?

    LOL

    You want me to believe that you don't wrestle with moral questions on occasion?

    It's YOUR opinion based upon how morality flows in the atheist worldview. However, you also admitted you could be wrong about everything you know too... so it follows you could be wrong professing to be an atheist, meaning God CAN exist in your worldview.**So not only have you given up on knowledge by claiming that, but your worldview also forces you to accept your definition of what is moral (right, and wrong), as merely an opinion.
    No, I'm open to learning new things. I haven't given up searching for knowledge.

    I see no need to turning to ancient folklore as way of understanding life and the nature of the universe.

    You are the one who stopped looking when you heard about the story of Jesus. As a nondenominational, you have even stopped questioning crucial parts of your faith. You simply suppress questions and doubts with silly prayers.

    You know so little about what you claim to believe in.

    How do I know that? I was once like you, but I decided to learn more about the bible.

    Go study the bible more, and the history of Christianity, it is truly fascinating.

    Lastly, as I mentioned before: you cannot truly hate something or someone which does not exist.**
    The folk lore of God continues to exist, and it is that which I dislike. What I hate, is how that ancient folk lore dulls the minds of my brothers and sisters who believe it to be true.

    Religion has outlived its useful purpose; the only positive thing I see emanating from today's era of churches is as civic organizations, they bring positive things to the community.

    People can have fellowship and be good to one another, without God.

    Besides, our modern code of laws are far morally and ethically superior to what is in the bible.

    The OT God condoned slavery, and Jesus turn a blind eye to it.

    Rusty, you gave up on knowledge a long time ago. Past discussions with you have already revealed your continual trend of self- defeating arguments, especially in the realm of Christian theology. Engaging in a full debate or discussion with you regarding this particular topic, or anything remotely associated with it would be a waste of time, and is not worthy of serious consideration. Your best bet is to stay where you are, and do your part by continuing to feed the emotional volition of self professed non-believers, so you have someone to keep you company.
    Rusty,

    He's not going to be "duped" into a conversation with you.

    In essence, he told you to go "Dupe Yourself!"

    I imagine that it is the kind of duping that happened in the PFC Pemberton case.

    I'm not sure how you could do that to yourself, but I'm sure you'll figure it out.
    All behold that fancy strutting peacock, the bake sale diva...

  4. #64
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E4RUMOR View Post
    Rusty, you gave up on knowledge a long time ago. Past discussions with you have already revealed your continual trend of self- defeating arguments, especially in the realm of Christian theology.
    Oh boy, with all of your piss poor arguments where you've done nothing but repeat yourself in terms of how the Bible was to be interpreted, and then walked away with a pout on your face; it comes as no shocker that you're going to take a pot shot at that, no doubt while reminiscing on your own frustration resulting from it.

    Nice try... but I'm gonna have to ask you to go take a seat somewhere with that.

    Engaging in a full debate or discussion with you regarding this particular topic, or anything remotely associated with it would be a waste of time, and is not worthy of serious consideration.
    It's a waste of time for you, because your tactics simply don't work. They didn't work in previous threads, and they're not working in this one.

    Your best bet is to stay where you are, and do your part by continuing to feed the emotional volition of self professed non-believers, so you have someone to keep you company.
    Before we talk about emotion, let's talk about "giving up on knowledge," something that religion - especially the Abrahamic religions (to which both Christianity and Judaism belong - is all about. When it comes to all the knowledge that there is to be had, religion sums it up in its respective book; in the case of Christianity, the Bible. Karl Marx one stated, "Religion is the impotence of the human mind to deal with occurrences it cannot understand."

    Science takes on those occurrences head-on. It doesn't give up by pulling answers out of its ass, and simply accepting those arbitrary "answers" as "fact." That's what religion - and in this case, Christianity - is all about.

    Onto the emotional aspect of it; a couple of the emotionally based arguments you've given:

    1. Your assertion that AA believes in God. Maybe you can't imagine a world without your God. Maybe you can't comprehend how others can live in a world without your God.

    2. Your assertion that God and Allah are not the same. You denied this, and then gave no explanation. Why not? This is simply based on the desire of some Christians - like yourself - to not have any kinship with Islam. Maybe you did have an explanation, and maybe that explanation was going to be the "moon god" argument that I beat you to... hence your frustration laced response to me.
    Last edited by Rusty Jones; 11-02-2014 at 10:16 AM.
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  5. #65
    Senior Member E4RUMOR's Avatar
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    A lot of interesting counter-arguments to the points I made.

    But you could be wrong about everything you know. So you can't point out anything with certainty. That's the person I'm dealing with. With that being said, why would I attempt to reason with someone who has the subconscious belief everything they know could be false? Essentially giving up true knowledge concerning everything they have learned thus far?

    Maybe you're not understanding that.

    The problem is nothing you have told me is new. Perhaps you believe you're educating me, but the fact of the matter is you have have no idea what I know. You don't know my level of knowledge concerning the scriptures, comparisons to other religions, and why I say with certainty the God of the Bible is not the same as the god of the Koran.

    You think my lack of in-depth explanation behind my statements is a result of ignorance. In fact, it's not. It's simply a resignation to your mindset.

    I believe "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge", and that's foreign to you. If I believe you start with God for knowledge, and not the opposite, i.e,. attempt to reason to God - You can't grasp that. It's asinine in your worldview.

    You refuse to submit to the God you know exists, and therefore, no matter what I say - It will never be enough to convince you otherwise. You have already resigned your mind and heart to suppress what you know to be true.

    And by your own admission, even if there was evidences to convince you otherwise, it wouldn't make a bit of difference. You hate God. So what good is evidence in that case? It's worth nothing! The goal of a Believer is not to convince you what you know is true. The goal of the Believer is to tell you the gospel of Christ. Which I have already done, and which you already know as well.

    I will tell you this, however. You never were a real Christian. Oh, you may have been going through the motions, and going to Church, etc.,. However, a real Christian recognizes the power of God and all His attributes: All powerful, all knowing, etc.,. Ergo, it's illogical to turn from the one you once professed had all knowledge and turn to your own level of knowledge for truth. If you really were a Christian, how can you even essentially place yourself in the position of God, and dismiss Him altogether? Real Christians don't do that.

    You claim to be in search of knowledge. However, if your heart is darkened to truth - which is an essential element to knowledge, then you're being intellectually dishonest, as you would be willing to dismiss any evidence that does not coincide with your desire to suppress what you know to be true.

    In closing, Apologists always use the following verse as a reason why they debate and argue what they believe: "Always be ready to give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you." 1 Peter 3:15. However, a lot of them leave out the first part. In its entirety it reads: "but honor the Messiah as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you."

    I set apart Christ as Lord first. I start with God. If I can't get past the God part with you, we can't get into the reasoning - and that's why discussing anything further in the theological realm is pointless.

    The Lord is my judge, and He will judge my witness here.

    You can judge me as well. I'm merely an imperfect human being, the same as you. I'm not better than anyone here. The only thing that differentiates you and I is our certainty on the existence of God. More specifically, the God of the Bible. The God who sent His Son Jesus to be the ultimate sacrifice for all remission of sin and unworthiness. The God who loves me and has a plan for me. I know God exists because I chose to follow Him. You don't believe God exists, because you choose to suppress the truth, and opt not to follow Him.

    Absinthe, I'm going to pray for you as soon as I finish typing this. That may not mean anything to you, and that's okay. I wish you the best in your endeavors and your quest for truth, and maybe a seed has been planted.

    I am finished with this particular discussion.

    God bless and Semper Fidelis.

    Mike.
    Last edited by E4RUMOR; 11-02-2014 at 02:44 AM.
    [B]SSgt Mike / USMC[/B]

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    "Don't give fools a foolish answer, or you will be just like them. But answer fools as they should be answered, or they will think they are really wise." Proverbs 26:4-5.

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    Senior Member Absinthe Anecdote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E4RUMOR View Post
    A lot of interesting counter-arguments to the points I made.

    But you could be wrong about everything you know. So you can't point out anything with certainty. That's the person I'm dealing with. With that being said, why would I attempt to reason with someone who has the subconscious belief everything they know could be false? Essentially giving up true knowledge concerning everything they have learned thus far?

    Maybe you're not understanding that.

    The problem is nothing you have told me is new. Perhaps you believe you're educating me, but the fact of the matter is you have have no idea what I know. You don't know my level of knowledge concerning the scriptures, comparisons to other religions, and why I say with certainty the God of the Bible is not the same as the god of the Koran.

    You think my lack of in-depth explanation behind my statements is a result of ignorance. In fact, it's not. It's simply a resignation to your mindset.

    I believe "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge", and that's foreign to you. If I believe you start with God for knowledge, and not the opposite, i.e,. attempt to reason to God - You can't grasp that. It's asinine in your worldview.

    You refuse to submit to the God you know exists, and therefore, no matter what I say - It will never be enough to convince you otherwise. You have already resigned your mind and heart to suppress what you know to be true.

    And by your own admission, even if there was evidences to convince you otherwise, it wouldn't make a bit of difference. You hate God. So what good is evidence in that case? It's worth nothing! The goal of a Believer is not to convince you what you know is true. The goal of the Believer is to tell you the gospel of Christ. Which I have already done, and which you already know as well.

    I will tell you this, however. You never were a real Christian. Oh, you may have been going through the motions, and going to Church, etc.,. However, a real Christian recognizes the power of God and all His attributes: All powerful, all knowing, etc.,. Ergo, it's illogical to turn from the one you once professed had all knowledge and turn to your own level of knowledge for truth. If you really were a Christian, how can you even essentially place yourself in the position of God, and dismiss Him altogether? Real Christians don't do that.

    You claim to be in search of knowledge. However, if your heart is darkened to truth - which is an essential element to knowledge, then you're being intellectually dishonest, as you would be willing to dismiss any evidence that does not coincide with your desire to suppress what you know to be true.

    In closing, Apologists always use the following verse as a reason why they debate and argue what they believe: "Always be ready to give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you." 1 Peter 3:15. However, a lot of them leave out the first part. In its entirety it reads: "but honor the Messiah as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you."

    I set apart Christ as Lord first. I start with God. If I can't get past the God part with you, we can't get into the reasoning - and that's why discussing anything further in the theological realm is pointless.

    The Lord is my judge, and He will judge my witness here.

    You can judge me as well. I'm merely an imperfect human being, the same as you. I'm not better than anyone here. The only thing that differentiates you and I is our certainty on the existence of God. More specifically, the God of the Bible. The God who sent His Son Jesus to be the ultimate sacrifice for all remission of sin and unworthiness. The God who loves me and has a plan for me. I know God exists because I chose to follow Him. You don't believe God exists, because you choose to suppress the truth, and opt not to follow Him.

    Absinthe, I'm going to pray for you as soon as I finish typing this. That may not mean anything to you, and that's okay. I wish you the best in your endeavors and your quest for truth, and maybe a seed has been planted.

    I am finished with this particular discussion.

    God bless and Semper Fidelis.

    Mike.
    After spending a good part of my life going to churches and talking to people like you, I'd say I'm qualified to take a guess at your level of knowledge about Christianity.

    Especially, when your posts indicate a person with so very little knowledge of religion.

    I even spent a few months in one of your non-denominational churches.

    You've probably never even read the entire bible. I feel very confident making that estimate.

    Yet, you'll talk about what a "real" Christian would do. You can't even sort out crucial aspects of your faith, thus you go to a watered down non-denominational church.

    You quoted Peter, do you even know who he was? Do you know what he did for the early church, when he lived, the places he went to, or what happened to him?

    I'm guessing you don't.

    Maybe it is I who planted a seed here.
    Last edited by Absinthe Anecdote; 11-02-2014 at 12:09 PM.
    All behold that fancy strutting peacock, the bake sale diva...

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    Quote Originally Posted by E4RUMOR View Post
    I will tell you this, however. You never were a real Christian. Oh, you may have been going through the motions, and going to Church, etc.,. However, a real Christian recognizes the power of God and all His attributes: All powerful, all knowing, etc.,. Ergo, it's illogical to turn from the one you once professed had all knowledge and turn to your own level of knowledge for truth. If you really were a Christian, how can you even essentially place yourself in the position of God, and dismiss Him altogether? Real Christians don't do that.
    This is a very strange thing to say. You believe that God has given us all freewill correct? As part of that freewill we are surely allowed to try out being a christian. It sounds like AA has in fact tried out being a christian. He then exercised his free will to not be a christian anymore. You saying that he never was a christian makes it sound like there is no such thing as being a christian. Are there not countless examples in the Bible of people who were christians but then sinned and never repented? Were they not ever really christians? Your statement seems to conflict with what the Bible says. Why can't you just accept the fact that AA tried out christianity, decided it wasn't for him and moved on? If you believe the literal words of the Bible AA is actually in the majority and he is supposed to be. Matthew 7:14 says, ""Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

    According to the book of Matthew the gate that leads to life is small and narrow and many aren't supposed to find it.

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