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Thread: Author Suggest Jesus Never Existed After Finding No Mention Of Him In Historical Text

  1. #31
    Senior Member Absinthe Anecdote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    Peter denying Jesus is a perfect example. I don't have the answer. Maybe Jesus never told Peter that it would happen, but when being written down, it made a better story.

    As I mentioned, it's very difficult for me to convey thoughts and meaning in a forum like this. Image how difficult it is for someone writing a book in the bible to properly do so, especially without exaggerating at certain points to get a point across.
    When I started viewing the bible in that manner it went against the teaching of the particular Baptist church I was a member of. They viewed the bible as the inerrant word of god, divinely inspired.

    Once I started considering that the scribes who compiled the early Christian bible had likely taken creative license with certain passages, a fissure formed in the foundation of my faith.

    It took a long time for that fissure to grow, but it continued to widen.

    I tried several other Protestant churches, I became pretty comfortable in a Methodist church, but my study of the bible continued to haunt me.

    If this passage was exaggerated, why not others? A very kind, gentle, and honest pastor unintentionally led me to atheism. He was an educated man, a biblical scholar, and from his advice, I started studying the bible against the backdrop of history. He was happy to see my hunger for knowledge about the bible, I think he hoped that I would consider going to seminary at some point, but it was nothing like that for me.

    That fissure only continued to widen, but the heaviest strain on my faith occurred when I returned to the Baptist church, after I married a Baptist girl.

    Her particular church was too "old time religion" for my tastes, and the gulf widened to the point I no longer wanted to go to church anymore.

    Years later, I turned to atheism.

    What I find interesting about you, is your non-affiliation with any church.

    If I remember correctly, you don't go to a church on a regular basis, and never really have.

    Is that correct?

    I get the impression that much of your knowledge of scripture is word-of-mouth? I know that sounds insulting, but please don't take it that way. I'm just trying to understand where you view scripture from.

    To admit that the bible isn't inerrant, and not divinely inspired is a very big deal.

    A huge deal from the perspective of my religious past.
    Last edited by Absinthe Anecdote; 10-04-2014 at 04:02 PM.
    All behold that fancy strutting peacock, the bake sale diva...

  2. #32
    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe Anecdote View Post
    When I started viewing the bible in that manner it went against the teaching of the particular Baptist church I was a member of. They viewed the bible as the inerrant word of god, divinely inspired.

    Once I started considering that the scribes who compiled the early Christian bible had likely taken creative license with certain passages, a fissure formed in the foundation of my faith.

    It took a long time for that fissure to grow, but it continued to widen.

    I tried several other Protestant churches, I became pretty comfortable in a Methodist church, but my study of the bible continued to haunt me.

    If this passage was exaggerated, why not others? A very kind, gentle, and honest pastor unintentionally led me to atheism. He was an educated man, a biblical scholar, and from his advice, I started studying the bible against the backdrop of history. He was happy to see my hunger for knowledge about the bible, I think he hoped that I would consider going to seminary at some point, but it was nothing like that for me.

    That fissure only continued to widen, but the heaviest strain on my faith occurred when I returned to the Baptist church, after I married a Baptist girl.

    Her particular church was too "old time religion" for my tastes, and the gulf widened to the point I no longer wanted to go to church anymore.

    Years later, I turned to atheism.

    What I find interesting about you, is your non-affiliation with any church.

    If I remember correctly, you don't go to a church on a regular basis, and never really have.

    Is that correct?

    I get the impression that much of your knowledge of scripture is word-of-mouth? I know that sounds insulting, but please don't take it that way. I'm just trying to understand where you view scripture from.

    To admit that the bible isn't inerrant, and not divinely inspired is a very big deal.

    A huge deal from the perspective of my religious past.
    That'll do it...

  3. #33
    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe Anecdote View Post
    What I find interesting about you, is your non-affiliation with any church.

    If I remember correctly, you don't go to a church on a regular basis, and never really have.

    Is that correct?
    That is correct. I went to church every Sunday from as young as I can remember until I was in my mid-teens. I attended many bible studies. I stopped attending that church when the preacher told my dad that my grandfather wasn't going to get into heaven because he was a minister from a different denomination. I then again tried to find churches I liked after joining the AF. I attended Baptist, Southern Baptist, Methodist, and a couple others. All of them were more business like than church like. I became tired of the hypocrisy within the Church. I became tired of being judged because I may have decided to wear jeans to church. I grew tired of sermons about how much money I should give to the church while at the same time watching the Baptist minister, in a congregation of thousands, driving a $150,000 car. Never once did I turn against religion. I turned against the corruption of many churches and the blind following of many of the congregation.

    I know you've mentioned this many times, but I have indeed read the bible several times. I have studied, with several different "study guides" discussing different interpretations of the verses.

    Because I am not studying in a way as to try to disprove to myself the existence of a deity, it's very probable that I overlook the verses that don't make sense or may have contradictions. I focus on the parts that make sense to me, that inspire me, and that allow me to maintain my faith in a way that impacts me alone.

    My step-son is Atheist. Not once have I tried to "convert" him. He knows my beliefs, I know his, and it doesn't change our relationship at all. It's not something I'd ever force on anyone so, to me, it's a very private thing. If someone brings up the topic, I don't shy away. I have invited many Mormons and JWs into my house when they come knocking. I sit and listen and give my points of view.

    Ultimately my main issue with the Church is the division that takes place within. I get tired of the "my beliefs are better than yours" people. The Christian Church was not designed to have several different denominations. So I choose none of them. I'm neither Catholic nor Protestant because there are parts of every single denomination that I agree with, and parts of every one that I don't.

  4. #34
    Junior Member INGUARD's Avatar
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    This youtube video was provided on this forum and it shows that many societies have a Christ like figure that was born on the 25th of December from a virgin mother. And brings up the same argument the OP provided about Jesus.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VRnXPDuXs
    Disclaimer - "This post was written because you wanted me to respond to it"

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  5. #35
    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INGUARD View Post
    This youtube video was provided on this forum and it shows that many societies have a Christ like figure that was born on the 25th of December from a virgin mother. And brings up the same argument the OP provided about Jesus.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4VRnXPDuXs
    Good video. Thanks for posting. Very good summary of the Kabbalah belief system rolled up into a short flick. They generally consider Christianity to be a perversion of the Egyptian Occult religion. Hence their Hatred toward Christianity. And why they'll be happy to kill us. They can't wait to usher in the age of Aquarius. As then the age of Pisces (The fish) is over. Narrator doesn't tell you OSIRIS was eaten by a fish (Christianity) ushering in the current era. Sound like Jonah?

    Rainmaker Found it Interesting @24:40 Narrator states "The Egyptian Religion is likely the foundation for Judeo-Christian Theology"

    And yet in "The Antiquity of the Jews" Flavious Josephus tells us that Abraham taught science to the Egyptians and the Egyptians taught it to the Greeks and Plato was taught wisdom (initiated) by the Jewish Prophet Jeremiah in Egypt. so maybe it's the other way around? in which case who is perverting the truth then?

    But, You guys are missing the point. It matters not whether a man named Jesus actually walked the face of the Earth or not. what matters is the message. and IRHO, the message is divinely inspired.

    The Bible is allegory. Allegory defined is "a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one."

    To the unlearned it's a story. to the initiated it contains wisdom of the ages.

    The old testament is the record of man's eternal state and yes man's eternal state is much older than the Hebrew bible. They just wrote it down for us. Gnomesayin?
    Last edited by Rainmaker; 10-08-2014 at 09:16 PM.

  6. #36
    Senior Member E4RUMOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe Anecdote View Post
    Even if I were to pretend that the bible is true, I can find plenty of reasons to reject the god of the Old Testament and God 2.0 that was rebooted in the New Testament.

    If this deity is what the scriptures claim, he doesn't deserve to be worshiped. He should be resisted, we should rise in revolt against his murderous and bloodthirsty plan for humanity.

    A god that would drown his creation with a great flood, is hardly a Heavenly Father that deserves our admiration and respect. He then offers us rainbows as a promise not to drown us again? That sounds too much like a wife beater who comes back home with a bouquet of flowers to assure his battered wife that he won't do it again.

    You want to pray to a fucking monster that does shit like that?

    Heck, he even leaves to door open to more violence, promising that he won't pull another act of genocide with water, next time he will use fire!

    Fuck you god! That sucks, and on judgement day, right before you banish me to an enternity in hell, I'm going to give you a stern reprimand.

    Sure, you sent us a mellowed out and sometimes poetic Jesus some 2000 years ago, but you still left us with your threat of mass destruction hanging over our heads.

    The book of Revelations caps off your holy book with such grand promises of trials and tribulations, the epic battle of Armageddon, judgement day, and the final destruction of the earth with the apocalypse.

    It must be boring as fuck up in heaven, if this asshole has the create so much fucking drama down here on Earth to entertain his holy ass.

    He is a sick and twisted god. His cruelty knows no bounds. He is vengeful, prone to fits of rage, and one hell of a lousy communicator.

    The message in his holy book is so fucking confusing that we have all these different sects of Christainity because it can be interpreted in so many different ways.

    I say verily unto you Christains, join me on judgement day to give god a stern reprimand.

    Does he really deserve to be followed unquestionly? Just look at his track record.
    Thank you. Thank you for boosting the very Word of God in which I believe with the rant you just made above.

    For example:

    For instance, in Romans 1:18-22 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they become fools.

    Now, a fool is not someone who is ignorant of truth. A fool is someone who knows the truth, but chooses to disregard it.

    Furthermore, the evidence of where you derive your ideas about God are plain. It's called Conjecture. Christopher Hitchens was a huge proponent of conjecture and utilized it in everyone of his debates, because even though it had nothing to do with his debates, it appealed to the emotional volition of his fans who ardently looked for any excuse to bolster their feigned non-belief in a Creator.

    Conjecture runs like this: "If God existed, then we would expect that our universe would look something like 'such-and such'. 'Such-and-such' is not what we find in reality, therefore God must not exist." It's also utilized in describing the attributes of God. One ascribes or projects a character as to who and what God should be or how God should act, then goes on to predict how the world should be given that such an assumed God had in fact made it.

    So Premise 1: God is such a being that he would create Universe A

    Premise 2: We live in Universe B

    Premise 3: Therefore, God did not create our universe

    Premise 4: Therefore, God does not exist.

    However, left to the whims of each person, Universe A becomes arbitrary and therefore the argument can be constructed in any random manner. A Nazi, for instance, might assume that God would be a person who would create an exclusively white race of human beings. An environmentalist might conceive of a world in which the animal kingdom did not depend on predation. And of course, the most universally advocated expectation of what one would expect to find in the creation of a benevolent God is the general absence of evil and suffering.

    The problem with this kind of reasoning is that literally any question in the world can be framed in a manner of: "Why did God do this and not do that?"

    Why did God make earthquakes? Why did God wait so long to make human beings? Why does the appendix exist? Why did God have to die on a cross? Why is the universe so big? Why do black holes exist? Why do people have to die? Why does God remain hidden?

    All these objections do is beg the question in favor of atheism. Everything that we perceive as the shortcomings of our own likeness of who and what God is, in effect, becomes evidence against the deity. But, then of course, we can take the exact same reasoning and apply it to atheism the same way:

    Why do we inhabit a universe based on laws? Why does life exist? Why does anything at all exist? Where do morality, beauty, art, truth, and music come from? Why do we even consider life's purpose, if the universe itself has none? Why would evolution produce a false belief in a higher realm of existence? Why do planets orbit suns? Why are there multiple dimensions? Why is life conscious? Why are humans self-aware?

    Perhaps Proverbs 9:10 would help out: "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding."

    You're already suppressing the truth, and therefore you're heart is darkened. Ergo, you're blind to the very nature of God, and who He is. But you have to start with Him in order to get anywhere with your reasoning, because frankly, an atheist worldview doesn't substantiate reasoning by anyone - because reason is based on truth, and truth is relative in the atheist worldview. But truth is Objective, set by God. Ergo, you have to start with Him.

    Lastly, as a final illustration - think about how illogical it would be to demand an explanation or judge the very One who created you if you consider all His attributes. An ant has no quarrel with a boot, and yet you're of the mindset where if you're an ant, you would argue with a boot. Truly asinine, indeed.
    [B]SSgt Mike / USMC[/B]

    "Your mission in life, should you choose to accept it or not, in which this case you don't have a choice..." -SSgt Mike.

    "Don't give fools a foolish answer, or you will be just like them. But answer fools as they should be answered, or they will think they are really wise." Proverbs 26:4-5.

  7. #37
    Senior Member USN - Retired's Avatar
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    “It ain’t supposed to make sense; it’s faith. Faith is something that you believe that nobody in his right mind would believe.” ~Archie Bunker
    As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others

  8. #38
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    I remember someone on facebook saying something along these lines: If one believes it, it's a psychological disorder. If few believe it, it's a cult. If many believe it, it's a religion.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

  9. #39
    Senior Member E4RUMOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    I remember someone on facebook saying something along these lines: If one believes it, it's a psychological disorder. If few believe it, it's a cult. If many believe it, it's a religion.
    *Trying to figure out the point behind why it was posted.*
    [B]SSgt Mike / USMC[/B]

    "Your mission in life, should you choose to accept it or not, in which this case you don't have a choice..." -SSgt Mike.

    "Don't give fools a foolish answer, or you will be just like them. But answer fools as they should be answered, or they will think they are really wise." Proverbs 26:4-5.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E4RUMOR View Post
    *Trying to figure out the point behind why it was posted.*
    Who cares? It's posted. You either respond to it or ignore it. Your move.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

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