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Thread: Author Suggest Jesus Never Existed After Finding No Mention Of Him In Historical Text

  1. #21
    Senior Member Absinthe Anecdote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    Subjective.
    I take that simple one word response to mean that you don't fancy the thought of pondering the nature of god. I can't say that I blame you, it isn't a pleasant thing to do.


    So which is it? Is he a monstrous bully, and that's why you hate him, or does he not exist, which is why you don't believe in him?
    In my case it is both. I arrived at the conclusion that God is a monstrous bully first, and then I killed him by ceasing to believe in him. I spent many years struggling with my faith in god, and it was rather painful.

    The more I sought to know him through his scripture, the more I realized what an abhorrent monster he is.

    I challenged him to come have it out with me, but he refused. I eventually stopped believing in him, and he just died. He died in much the same manner Santa Claus died when I stopped believing in him, with little fanfare, he just ceased to exist.

    I think he went to the same place all dead gods and mythical creatures go, he's hanging out with Zeus, Apollo, Odin, Thor, the Easter Island Moai, Leprechauns, wood sprites, water pixies, and jolly old Saint Nick.

    Despite being mad at him, and thinking he was a tyrannical monster, I mourned his passing for some time. It's hard to explain, and I know it must be confusing to hear me speak of him in terms of being both a myth, and a real monster at the same time.

    I apologize for the confusion, and I know you think that I'm being disrespectful just for fun, but I'm not. I'm sharing a very personal part of my self with you and the rest of the readers. Perhaps, the most vulnerable aspect of my personality, yet it is also a great source of my strength.

    It was very agonizing for me to decide that God was a monster, and then kill him like that.

    It was so very painful, and I was angry, so very angry for such a long while.

    The anger comes back once in a while, as I'm sure you've noticed.


    Because that would remove the need for faith.
    If you have the time, would you care to explain why such a premium is placed on faith? Why is it wrong to follow our naturally inquisitive minds?

    God gave us the gift of thought, he made us to be curious. Why is curiosity so dangerous to God's existence, and unquestioning faith so vital to his existence?

    Why?

    If he is truly all powerful, truly the Alpha and Omega, then why must we play this silly game of faith with him?
    As do I with the myth of evolution...I mean...the theory.
    Just out of curiosity, how old do you think the Earth is? I won't question you further on the matter or taunt you for whatever your answer is, I just would like to know how old you think our planet is.


    I will, indeed. I'll say a nice prayer for you.
    Thanks brother! I never turn down a prayer. I can't pray for you, but I will have a nice moment of thought on your behalf.
    All behold that fancy strutting peacock, the bake sale diva...

  2. #22
    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe Anecdote View Post
    If you have the time, would you care to explain why such a premium is placed on faith? Why is it wrong to follow our naturally inquisitive minds?
    I muse at how you assume that people of faith don't have inquisitive minds. I ask questions about my faith on a daily basis.

    God gave us the gift of thought, he made us to be curious. Why is curiosity so dangerous to God's existence, and unquestioning faith so vital to his existence?
    It's not dangerous to him. There's nothing wrong with being curious, just as there is nothing wrong with a child being curious about things their parents tell them not to do.



    If he is truly all powerful, truly the Alpha and Omega, then why must we play this silly game of faith with him?
    Because the only other option is to take away our free will.


    Just out of curiosity, how old do you think the Earth is? I won't question you further on the matter or taunt you for whatever your answer is, I just would like to know how old you think our planet is.
    Billions of years, I'm sure. There are relatively accurate ways to prove the age, unless you are one who believes that God designed it so that it would appear older than it actually is, but I don't believe that.



    Thanks brother! I never turn down a prayer. I can't pray for you, but I will have a nice moment of thought on your behalf.
    I appreciate it. A nice thought, a prayer...same same.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Absinthe Anecdote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    Because the only other option is to take away our free will.
    My pastor said something like that once, but I don't understand that answer.

    God used to appear to people and speak to them directly. It happened a lot.

    Adam and Eve had free will, did they not?

    Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jacob even got to wrestle with an angel! Did not they maintain free will?

    Lot and his family met two angels right before Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed. It didn't destroy Lot's wife's free will, she looked back after being told not to. Did not she have free will?

    There are a bunch more in the OT, and even in the NT.

    What about the disciples of Jesus, did they have free will? Especially the twelve Apostles, they are very problematic. What about Judas? I guess he didn't have free will, huh? I mean he was kind of obligated to betray Jesus.

    Poor Peter, he was locked into disowning Jesus three times before the rooster crowed, wasn't he?

    I'll agree that Peter and Judas had no free will, because they were an integral part of God's plan, but what about the rest of the Apostles? Did they have free will?

    What about all those people that Jesus fed the loaves and fishes to? Did he destroy their free will?

    Does seeing God or an angel really take away your free will? I'm not so sure it does in every instance.

    I maintain that it is the whole notion of God's plan and prophecies that really mess with free will. Not the mere sight of God.

    If we are all really part of a plan, even a small part, do we even have free will?

    Plus, if the prophecies say that a certain number of people are going to hell, then don't a certain number of people have to go to hell?

    This is what I don't like about god, we are nothing but pawns to him.

    Some have free will, some don't, we are just toys to him. I don't like that one bit.

    He wouldn't even come talk it over with me either.

    Nope! He practically dared me to kill him. So, I lost my faith and he died just to spite me.

    I can only conclude that I am one of the drones put here specifically to become a blasphemer and occupy a seat in hell, or that the whole thing is a fairy tale.

    No offense, but I don't think you have put much thought into all this.

    You might be better off just not questioning the whole thing. I think you were telling me a fib when you said you questioned your faith daily.

    Just thank your lucky stars that you weren't destined to become an atheist, you got an easy part in god's plan.

    We hell bounders are sure carrying a heavy load when you think about it.
    Last edited by Absinthe Anecdote; 10-03-2014 at 11:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe Anecdote View Post
    My pastor said something like that once, but I don't understand that answer.

    God used to appear to people and speak to them directly. It happened a lot.

    Adam and Eve had free will, did they not?

    Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jacob even got to wrestle with an angel! Did not they maintain free will?

    Lot and his family met two angels right before Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed. It didn't destroy Lot's wife's free will, she looked back after being told not to. Did not she have free will?

    There are a bunch more in the OT, and even in the NT.

    What about the disciples of Jesus, did they have free will? Especially the twelve Apostles, they are very problematic. What about Judas? I guess he didn't have free will, huh? I mean he was kind of obligated to betray Jesus.

    Poor Peter, he was locked into disowning Jesus three times before the rooster crowed, wasn't he?

    I'll agree that Peter and Judas had no free will, because they were an integral part of God's plan, but what about the rest of the Apostles? Did they have free will?

    What about all those people that Jesus fed the loaves and fishes to? Did he destroy their free will?

    Does seeing God or an angel really take away your free will? I'm not so sure it does in every instance.

    I maintain that it is the whole notion of God's plan and prophecies that really mess with free will. Not the mere sight of God.

    If we are all really part of a plan, even a small part, do we even have free will?

    Plus, if the prophecies say that a certain number of people are going to hell, then don't a certain number of people have to go to hell?

    This is what I don't like about god, we are nothing but pawns to him.

    Some have free will, some don't, we are just toys to him. I don't like that one bit.

    He wouldn't even come talk it over with me either.

    Nope! He practically dared me to kill him. So, I lost my faith and he died just to spite me.

    I can only conclude that I am one of the drones put here specifically to become a blasphemer and occupy a seat in hell, or that the whole thing is a fairy tale.

    No offense, but I don't think you have put much thought into all this.

    You might be better off just not questioning the whole thing. I think you were telling me a fib when you said you questioned your faith daily.

    Just thank your lucky stars that you weren't destined to become an atheist, you got an easy part in god's plan.

    We hell bounders are sure carrying a heavy load when you think about it.
    Yep, they all had free will. God did not appear to everyone, even then. Every single one of those instances you mentioned was about one thing. Temptation. And that is where the challenge comes in.

    You really don't think I question it? Every single day I question it. Everything you've mentioned, I questioned. But then I look around me and realize that, for me, there is no other possible answer.

    Nobody was put here to occupy a seat in hell, just as nobody was born to spend their life in prison. However, there are laws and most of us actually have the capability to choose whether we follow those laws or not. Some people choose to follow them, some people choose not to and have no regret, some choose not to but have regret and feel sorry for what they've done, and others don't even realize they are breaking the law. I choose to believe in a creator that has given 3 of those 4 examples a path to forgiveness, while at the same time telling the 4th example exactly how to change.

    Nobody is hell bound, and nobody is destined for anything.

    As far as him daring you to kill him, I'll only say this. Maybe his way of showing you he exists is to make you hate him. You can't hate something that doesn't exist.

    I don't know his intentions. I don't know his motives. What I do know is that, as far as the story goes, a criminal hanging on the cross next to Jesus had to believe for no more than his last few dying moments, and ask forgiveness, and it was granted. To me, that doesn't sound like an evil, hateful, bully God.

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    Senior Member Absinthe Anecdote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    Yep, they all had free will. God did not appear to everyone, even then. Every single one of those instances you mentioned was about one thing. Temptation. And that is where the challenge comes in.

    You really don't think I question it? Every single day I question it. Everything you've mentioned, I questioned. But then I look around me and realize that, for me, there is no other possible answer.

    Nobody was put here to occupy a seat in hell, just as nobody was born to spend their life in prison. However, there are laws and most of us actually have the capability to choose whether we follow those laws or not. Some people choose to follow them, some people choose not to and have no regret, some choose not to but have regret and feel sorry for what they've done, and others don't even realize they are breaking the law. I choose to believe in a creator that has given 3 of those 4 examples a path to forgiveness, while at the same time telling the 4th example exactly how to change.

    Nobody is hell bound, and nobody is destined for anything.

    As far as him daring you to kill him, I'll only say this. Maybe his way of showing you he exists is to make you hate him. You can't hate something that doesn't exist.

    I don't know his intentions. I don't know his motives. What I do know is that, as far as the story goes, a criminal hanging on the cross next to Jesus had to believe for no more than his last few dying moments, and ask forgiveness, and it was granted. To me, that doesn't sound like an evil, hateful, bully God.
    First of all, thanks for taking the time to have this conversation with me, I really do appreciate it.

    Didn't you just double back on me over the question on the importance of faith?

    I asked why faith was so important, you said without it we'd have no free will.

    I pointed out a bunch of instances of God making himself known to people, yet you agree that they maintain their free will?

    I then put forth the claim that it is prophecies and God's plan that make free will problematic, and not the mere sight of God, his son, or god talking to you.

    Take Peter as an example, when Jesus told Peter that he would disown him three times before the rooster crows, did Peter have a choice in the matter?

    For Peter to do otherwise, would make Jesus wrong.

    When God sends a prophecy to us, he seals our fate.

    Clearly not everyone can escape hell, since his holy book says that multitudes of us are hell bound. For his prophecy to be fulfilled, there have to be people to fill seats in hell.

    The only alternatives are that God is wrong, or God isn't real. Your prison analogy is so far off base, that I only mention it to say, it isn't relevant to our discussion of faith and free will.

    If we are using the bible for the basis of our discussion, that prison analogy doesn't fit.

    According to the bible, not everyone can have salvation as you claimed, some of us are going to hell. The bible says so. Are you saying the bible is wrong?

    Also, "every single one of those instances" that I mentioned are not stories from the bible that illustrate temptation.

    I have to question your knowledge of the bible when you say things like that. We've been over this particular ground before, and I will not encourage you to study your bible anymore. You seem much happier having only a fuzzy acquaintance with it.

    I and so many other atheists have had their faith destroyed by studying the bible.

    Read it with caution.
    Last edited by Absinthe Anecdote; 10-04-2014 at 02:19 AM.
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  6. #26
    Senior Member Absinthe Anecdote's Avatar
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    Please don't ignore my previous post, but I wanted to address the following two comments of yours because I found them particularly intriguing.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    But then I look around me and realize that, for me, there is no other possible answer.
    Can you find the words to describe this to me in a bit more detail?

    Back a few post ago, I tried to describe my acceptance of no afterlife as making my brief existence all the more special. The belief that I only have a brief period to live, makes my small good deeds more meaningful, and my misdeeds less significant.

    It makes everything good I have seen all the more beautiful, and all the horror that I have seen, so easier to tolerate.

    A No-God-Universe makes my short life make sense. I'd much rather exist as an insect or flower does, than be caught up in a struggle between Hebrews, Gentiles, and Philistines.

    How does God make life more beautiful? It's a big fight over territory and who worships what God, or who prays to what idol. Senseless bloodshed, when he has to power to stop it any time he chooses. But yet, he let's us grind each other down.

    Can you try to explain why God and his judgements, punishments, tests, trials, and tribulations is the only possible answer?

    What I do know is that, as far as the story goes, a criminal hanging on the cross next to Jesus had to believe for no more than his last few dying moments, and ask forgiveness, and it was granted. To me, that doesn't sound like an evil, hateful, bully God.
    It does to me. That criminal could have been saved before being beaten and crucified. God could have stepped in as his almighty self, not in Jesus form, but Holy Ghost style, and stopped the Roman occupation, set the Pharisees straight, righted all wrongs and gave us peace without becoming Jesus.

    Apparently, as great as Jesus was, he must have not been that convincing, since there were a great many people who had him brutalized, and then hung on a cross in agony beside that criminal.

    The creator of the universe chooses to be not 100 percent convincing. However, he did go around performing miracles?

    Can you explain this? Can you see why I think he is a monster? He chooses pain and suffering, when there is no need for it.

    If he has the power that the bible says, he is a monster. Otherwise, a myth.
    All behold that fancy strutting peacock, the bake sale diva...

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    This is such a difficult discussion to have on the internet because it's so hard to convey feeling and meaning behind typed words. Maybe if I were a novelist I could do a better job.

    The things you mention are exactly the things that make me question faith on a regular basis. How can one claim free will while at the same time believing in a God that knows how things turnout? How can such a loving God have been so brutal? How can everyone have a chance when it's said that not everyone will have salvation? I know I'm not hitting all of your points, but my answer is that I have no idea. I really don't.

    I think the hard part for non-believers to get is believers can put logic aside for faith, but that's we do. And I understand why it's difficult for people to grasp that.

    Peter denying Jesus is a perfect example. I don't have the answer. Maybe Jesus never told Peter that it would happen, but when being written down, it made a better story.

    As I mentioned, it's very difficult for me to convey thoughts and meaning in a forum like this. Image how difficult it is for someone writing a book in the bible to properly do so, especially without exaggerating at certain points to get a point across.

    As far as the criminal on the cross...yes...he could have been saved far before being beaten on the cross. But then we wouldn't have an example of how anyone can be saved, no matter what they've done. Again, is it an accurate story or was it written to convey a specific message? Either way, I like the message in the end. So I throw logic out, and take it at faith that I have the same chance to be forgiven for the things I do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe Anecdote View Post

    Can you find the words to describe this to me in a bit more detail?
    I wanted to hit this one on it's own.

    Just as many can't fathom how someone can believe in something they can't see and can't quantify, I can't fathom the entire concept billions of years of evolution leading us to this point.

    If you look at everything in nature, it all works pretty perfectly. Animals, plants, the environment, everything works in concert with each other. Except for people. If we were all evolved along with everything else around us then, IMO, we would also fall into the category of working in concert with the rest of that stuff. What makes the difference is the fact that there is evil in the world. Evil is not natural. We don't find it anywhere else in nature. That evil comes from greed, it comes from temptation. The only possible explanation, to me, is that the temptation comes from the devil...and if there is evil, if there is a devil, then there is definitely a God.

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    Senior Member Absinthe Anecdote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    I wanted to hit this one on it's own.

    Just as many can't fathom how someone can believe in something they can't see and can't quantify, I can't fathom the entire concept billions of years of evolution leading us to this point.

    If you look at everything in nature, it all works pretty perfectly. Animals, plants, the environment, everything works in concert with each other. Except for people. If we were all evolved along with everything else around us then, IMO, we would also fall into the category of working in concert with the rest of that stuff. What makes the difference is the fact that there is evil in the world. Evil is not natural. We don't find it anywhere else in nature. That evil comes from greed, it comes from temptation. The only possible explanation, to me, is that the temptation comes from the devil...and if there is evil, if there is a devil, then there is definitely a God.
    Thanks for taking the time to share that with me. Many people see the natural world as you do. Harmonious, balanced perfectly, like a precision clock. I recently drew some strange looks in one of my literature classes when I put forth the view that any balance we see in nature is precarious and haphazard.

    We had just read an essay on nature by Chief Luther Standing Bear, and he spoke of nature in very much the same terms you speak in.

    When I look at nature I see a house of cards, ready to topple at the slightest disturbance. I see all of the many different forms of life, from the smallest bacteria to we mighty humans, as being locked in a violent struggle against not only against each other, but against the very universe.

    All the life on this planet is clinging to a fragile toehold beneath a thin atmosphere, and a magnetic field that protects us from the deadly radiation of our own sun.

    It is far from a perfect balance, there have been numerous extinctions, as one species overpowered another in the competition for food and dominance.

    This happened many times, over and over, long before humankind showed up on earth.

    I know you reject evolution (or parts of it) but the fact is, the fossil record shows a continuous arms race between the capability of predators, and the defenses of their prey.

    I know it hard to see the brutality of nature when you are enjoying the scenic view of a mountain lake, but nature is very violent, it isn't peaceful and tranquil.

    Go visit a spiderweb if you are having trouble understanding me, toss an insect into the web. You'll get a mini demonstration in the violent struggle for survival that goes on around us every minute of everyday.

    If you have the time and inclination, you can even go buy a microscope, and examine a tiny drop of pond water to see amoeba and paramecium locked in mortal combat.

    We humans are part of nature, we are not outside of it. If nature is brutal, so are we. If nature is innocent, then so are we.

    The concept of evil is so very puzzling to me too; however, I choose not to blame it on a devil, or a god.

    I attempt to explain it as our perception of behavior. We are social creatures, we battle for survival in groups. At one time, these groups were very small bands of hunter gathers that roamed the land. They depended on unity to survive against the elements, and against other small bands of hunter gathers. They had to adopt a code of conduct, so they created good and evil to be the framework of this code.

    It was a brilliant invention because humans soon began working together in more efficient and larger teams. Their rules and codes of conduct had to grow with them, and one night, by the warm glow of a campfire, our ancestors gave birth to Gods, Devils, and all manners of spirits and deities.

    Although these gods and devils were but a mere fiction, they animated the human social code in a very vivid manner.

    Does good and evil truly exist? I believe they do, but they exist only in the interactions between one human being and another.

    There is no good and evil between spider and wasp, between wolf and antelope, or between trout and dragonfly.

    Good and evil only exists in the minds of humans, because it is our creation, our method of coping and surviving together as a species in a very violent and deadly universe.

    They are very real forces for us, because it is what we use to measure one another, to keep each other loyal to the group, and even to expel a human from a group.

    Good and evil are the essence of our social construct; however, there are no tiny devils or angels sitting on our shoulders, at least not in the world that I observe.

    That's my take on all of this.

    Thanks again for sharing your view, and for listening to mine.

    This has been a pretty cool conversation.
    All behold that fancy strutting peacock, the bake sale diva...

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    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe Anecdote View Post
    Either way, you are willfully ignoring the muderous monster described in the bible. You choose to see him as all loving and peaceful, yet his book proudly lists such murderous deeds in the passages that actually have a bit of clarity.

    Have fun worshiping your monster.
    Whether he knows it or not. Abs has summed up nicely the sentiments of those practitioners of the mystery religions of ancient Babylon and this explains why so many of the Luciferian Cultists running our institutions of society hate the Spirit of Christ and Christians in general. And why they must be called into the light on it, as this is done in secret. Now, the bible can be taken many ways and it matters not to Rainmaker whether the man named Jesus ever existed or not. Rainmaker personally believes that it is a fiction (not secular history. but, salvation history). Now, There are two worlds: the outer world of effect and the inner world of causation. can a fictional story be divine? People have been arguing this for thousands of years, and can never prove the existence or non-existence of God. That's why it's called faith. It's a Mystery and It's designed to be that way. If it was made explicit what would be the point of the exercise? gnomesayin?
    Last edited by Rainmaker; 10-04-2014 at 03:14 PM.

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