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Thread: Airman denied re-enlistment for refusing to say "so help me God"

  1. #191
    Senior Member Absinthe Anecdote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stalwart View Post
    Am I that different, in that I don't go to work every day looking to write people up and get people in trouble?
    I think you are very different from the guys who that sort of thing.

    You've never seen vindictive people, who seem to have a zeal for writing people up?

    There aren't that many running around, but they always leave a lasting impression when you meet one.
    All behold that fancy strutting peacock, the bake sale diva...

  2. #192
    Senior Member Stalwart's Avatar
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    Sure, I have seen some real jerks (not necessarily identifiable by rank alone ... they come in all shapes and sizes), but at least from my point of view they seem to be a real minority. I get the impression that the perception is that they are the majority -- which makes me wonder about things.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield is between your ears.

  3. #193
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stalwart View Post
    Sure, I have seen some real jerks (not necessarily identifiable by rank alone ... they come in all shapes and sizes), but at least from my point of view they seem to be a real minority. I get the impression that the perception is that they are the majority -- which makes me wonder about things.
    Probably. When you have to spend a considerable amount of your time worrying about staying out of trouble, you have little room for anything else.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

  4. #194
    Senior Member Absinthe Anecdote's Avatar
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    I agree that they are of the minority, but the human memory keeps negative experiences in the section of the brain that produces vivid memories.

    I think this is what leads to a skewed perception.

    How often do you Navy guys swap sea stories about Joe, "The even-keel" Sailor?

    I'm guessing he doesn't get talked about much, but Joe "The Colossal Prick" Sailor gets talked about so much more.
    All behold that fancy strutting peacock, the bake sale diva...

  5. #195
    Senior Member Stalwart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Probably. When you have to spend a considerable amount of your time worrying about staying out of trouble, you have little room for anything else.
    In my 24 years, I have yet to see someone who was doing their job, the way they should be (so not just getting the right result but also using the right processes) getting persecuted by their command. I say that as some who was busted (deservedly so) twice.

    So are people spending so much time looking over their shoulders worrying about being persecuted because of:

    1. Bad leadership
    2. A persecution complex
    3. As a result of doing things they should not be

    Or (my strong suspicion) a combination of the three.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield is between your ears.

  6. #196
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stalwart View Post
    In my 24 years, I have yet to see someone who was doing their job, the way they should be (so not just getting the right result but also using the right processes) getting persecuted by their command. I say that as some who was busted (deservedly so) twice.

    So are people spending so much time looking over their shoulders worrying about being persecuted because of:

    1. Bad leadership
    2. A persecution complex
    3. As a result of doing things they should not be

    Or (my strong suspicion) a combination of the three.
    I'll also add a #4: Watching your peers get busted for small things, three mast cases per week happening at a command with only 275 Sailors attached, and wondering when your turn is coming.

    The ONLY time in my 11 years that I have EVER been written up came just three months before I got out: I was instructed to do an EMIR, because of a Sailor who was being discharged as a result of an NJP (over something stupid, I might add). Anyhow, you're not supposed to do an EMIR until AFTER the Sailor is off the ship - I try to tell them that every time but, of course, DIVO says to do it, so I do it. Besides, we were overmanned for that Sailor's rate and NEC anyway. I give it to my DIVO for his chop, and I never see it again. Of course, since it's not something initiated by me - and not something I was supposed to be doing anyway, given the circumstances - for all I know, XO could have decided this time that the EMIR doesn't need to go out.

    A month or two later, I get blind-sided by the CMAA who gave me a friendly warning that there's a report chit with my name on it, because the EMIR never went out.

    So, what do I do? I go down to radio, to see if it was ever logged. It wasn't. I check my computer to see if I still had the message drafted. I did. I informed the CMAA what happened, and he did a little investigation - turns out that the EMIR was still in the blue folder with the disk, and sitting in my DIVO's state room the whole time. He never even took it to the XO.

    So, the charge was dropped and, fortunately, I never even saw DRB. Did anything happen to my DIVO for losing the EMIR in his stateroom? Nope - but I didn't care at the time; all I cared about was the fact that I was in the clear.

    Clearly, however... this was a "marked man" incident. I watched three other First Classes get busted on that ship, and two other First Classes get out at their EAOS, both with at least ten years in - and I was number three. By the way, all of this happened within a 9 month span.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

  7. #197
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Another interesting note... one Seaman who got ADSEP mentioned that when he went to mast, the FIRST words out of the CO's mouth were "You knew we were gonna get you, right?"

    Wrong. Just plain wrong. And it would be one thing if it was said to someone more senior, but still wrong. The fact that it was said to a Seaman makes it that much more worse.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

  8. #198
    Senior Member Stalwart's Avatar
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    I have seen people bustled for little things; but it was almost always a case of the 'straw breaking the camel's back.' I cannot write a charge sheet because I do t like you; I can write a charge sheet if you are ten seconds late for muster. If it is first time and I am just being an ass, the DRB will catch that; if it is the 10th time this month ... Well you may need some more formal adjustment.

    It sounds like you served with a poor DIVO -- bad leadership.

    In the case of the SN, was he a poor Sailor? If he was the kind of guy who could have been predicted to get I. trouble, given warnings/counselings etc. and did not shape up? Then I could see saying something like that to him. I have successfully predicted before people who were headed to NJP and ADSEP; it is not hard but it is not something I want either.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield is between your ears.

  9. #199
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stalwart View Post
    I have seen people bustled for little things; but it was almost always a case of the 'straw breaking the camel's back.' I cannot write a charge sheet because I do t like you; I can write a charge sheet if you are ten seconds late for muster. If it is first time and I am just being an ass, the DRB will catch that; if it is the 10th time this month ... Well you may need some more formal adjustment.

    It sounds like you served with a poor DIVO -- bad leadership.
    I would use the terms "poor DIVO" and "bad leadership" in cases where they don't know what they're doing. But I have a feeling that they did. Word that I got from CMAA when the EMIR was found, because of the exact location and the fact that the DIVO's own chop wasn't on it, it appeared to have been hidden and not lost (I was actually good friends with the CMAA).

    Now why would it be hidden? It is indeed possible that the CMAA found it just in time, before the DIVO could get the XO's chop on it and plant it somewhere at the bottom of my inbox - who knows? But something was definitely "not kosher" about the situation.

    Another former First Class on that same ship got busted for not reporting a DUI to the command while he was on leave. This wasn't too long after the court ruling that command's can't do that - so his RIR got overturned, and he was a First Class again. Not too long after I separated, I heard that they actually got him - he was a Second Class, and he stayed one. I heard it had something to do with leaving the mess decks trashed after an ice cream social or something like that - but it was something that could have been remedied with a suspended RIR and a 45/45 at the most.

    In the case of the SN, was he a poor Sailor? If he was the kind of guy who could have been predicted to get I. trouble, given warnings/counselings etc. and did not shape up? Then I could see saying something like that to him. I have successfully predicted before people who were headed to NJP and ADSEP; it is not hard but it is not something I want either.
    I don't know, as this Sailor wasn't in my department. However, that statement from the CO was an explicit statement that he was stalking his prey and waiting for the opportunity to go on the for kill.

    While at that command and under that particular CO, I have never once seen a suspended RIR used - and I was PS, so I know what everyone got. Everyone who went to mast there, at the minimum, walked out at the next lower paygrade.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

  10. #200
    Senior Member Stalwart's Avatar
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    Nonetheless, I hope the reserves work out and provide a better example.
    The most important six inches on the battlefield is between your ears.

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