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Thread: Does this come to par with homosexual discrimination?

  1. #21
    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post


    They're not being discriminated against. They were asked to leave, not because of who they are, but because of what they were DOING.


    Nor were the gays in the cake shop. The shop would have been more than happy to sell them a cake. Just not one with depictions they disagreed with. So they weren't discriminating against gays. They were not served because of what they wanted on their cake.

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    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    If the cake shop has Jesus figures in stock, and refuses to put one on your cake, then you have a legitimate gripe.
    No, it wouldn't. Not if I, as a shop owner, only sell the figures as sets. If I sell two male or two female figures then I now have to re-order so that I once again have complete sets. Also, if I was a cake shop owner I wouldn't be decorating cakes with stuff that I felt was obsene. Even though I have all the necessary products to do so, I wouldn't do it. What if someone comes in asking for a picture of a penis on their cake? Or a picture of a naked woman? If I feel it's obsene I wouldn't do it.

    This would be like going to Victoria Secret to get something that you want your wife to wear, only to be told that they won't sell it to you because you're a man.
    No...that would be like going into Victoria's Secret and telling the cashier that I didn't want the bra and panties set, I wanted the bra and bra set...even though that's not how the sets come.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    Well, I'm getting at the fact that cake shops didn't ban gays, as you stated. Then I'm getting at that I have no issue with private companies deciding who they will and will not serve. So when it comes to the mall asking the people praying to leave and the cake shop choosing not to serve gays, there is no difference. The cake shop didn't NOT serve the gays because they were gay. They didn't want to serve them because of an "action" (wanting a same sex couple on the cake). No different than the praying.
    I'm torn on the cake shop issue. I believe if you do business with the public then you have an obligation not to discriminate. On the other hand I believe in the right to refuse service to anyone you choose. In the case of the mall, the article I read said they had problems with religious groups in the past. I think the mall staff (like SO many others)does not know the difference between being religous, praying and proselytizing. Personally, I think that the mall is being a bit heavy handed with its outright ban on prayer.

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    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    Nor were the gays in the cake shop. The shop would have been more than happy to sell them a cake. Just not one with depictions they disagreed with. So they weren't discriminating against gays. They were not served because of what they wanted on their cake.
    Great, so if you order a pizza with sausage and olives, should they be allowed to refuse that because they don't believe that those two toppings should go on the same pizza?

    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    No, it wouldn't. Not if I, as a shop owner, only sell the figures as sets. If I sell two male or two female figures then I now have to re-order so that I once again have complete sets.
    ...and that argument is complete bullshit. For one, you don't know that they come in sets. In fact, I bet they don't; or at least most don't. Because you still have to account for interracial marriages, the possibilities aren't finite enough for all figurines to be prepackaged in pairs.

    Also, if I was a cake shop owner I wouldn't be decorating cakes with stuff that I felt was obsene. Even though I have all the necessary products to do so, I wouldn't do it. What if someone comes in asking for a picture of a penis on their cake? Or a picture of a naked woman? If I feel it's obsene I wouldn't do it.
    This is a disingenuous argument. Why? You can "get away" with this, because it's not an "adult" store; i.e., children could be present. Hell, it might even be illegal for you to do that, even if you wanted to. Now, if you owned an adult novelty store with a cake shop in it, that would be different. Strange, but different.

    No...that would be like going into Victoria's Secret and telling the cashier that I didn't want the bra and panties set, I wanted the bra and bra set...even though that's not how the sets come.
    Again, you're assuming that the figurines came in sets, when you don't know that. But, for the sake of argument, it's more like them refusing to sell you two of the same bras.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAF-Controller View Post
    I'm torn on the cake shop issue. I believe if you do business with the public then you have an obligation not to discriminate. On the other hand I believe in the right to refuse service to anyone you choose. In the case of the mall, the article I read said they had problems with religious groups in the past. I think the mall staff (like SO many others)does not know the difference between being religous, praying and proselytizing. Personally, I think that the mall is being a bit heavy handed with its outright ban on prayer.
    Again, they didn't refuse to serve the couple. They just weren't willing to make the product a certain way. So I don't see any discrimination. ABC doesn't have TV shows I enjoy watching. I don't keep the channel on ABC. I change it to a channel that is able to serve me the programming I like. Does that mean that ABC is discriminating against me? Should they air shows to appease everyone, or should they air show that appeal to a vast majority of their audience?

    As far as the ban on prayer, I can see it (inside the building). Public displays of things like that are apt to cause civil discourse. It's much easier to avoid arguments in a place like that by not allowing it to happen.

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    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Great, so if you order a pizza with sausage and olives, should they be allowed to refuse that because they don't believe that those two toppings should go on the same pizza?
    Believe it or not, there are certain pizza places that don't have a "build your own" option. If I order a Hawiaan, I get ham and pineapple. If they even have the option to change stuff, there is an extra charge. Are pizza places discriminating? I could easily find another pizza place that fit my needs rather than demanding that the first place change how they make pizzas.



    ...and that argument is complete bullshit. For one, you don't know that they come in sets. In fact, I bet they don't; or at least most don't. Because you still have to account for interracial marriages, the possibilities aren't finite enough for all figurines to be prepackaged in pairs.
    I have no idea if they do or not. I will bet, however, that when the cake place in question orders figures, they order equal numbers of male and female figures. I'd be willing to bet my paycheck on that one.



    This is a disingenuous argument. Why? You can "get away" with this, because it's not an "adult" store; i.e., children could be present. Hell, it might even be illegal for you to do that, even if you wanted to. Now, if you owned an adult novelty store with a cake shop in it, that would be different. Strange, but different.
    I definitely wouldn't be licking the icing in that store.

    Again, you're assuming that the figurines came in sets, when you don't know that. But, for the sake of argument, it's more like them refusing to sell you two of the same bras.
    Again, even if they didn't come in a set, they were probably ordered in equal numbers. So they are sold as a set.

    Now, if the couple purchased two sets then I'd have no problem with it. They can mix and match and place the figures on the cake themselves. In that situation I would have a problem with the cake shop owner. Again, I don't know the situation any more than what I read on various sites. But what I do know is that the owner should never be required to produce a product that is not part of their normal product line.

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    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    Again, they didn't refuse to serve the couple. They just weren't willing to make the product a certain way. So I don't see any discrimination. ABC doesn't have TV shows I enjoy watching. I don't keep the channel on ABC. I change it to a channel that is able to serve me the programming I like. Does that mean that ABC is discriminating against me? Should they air shows to appease everyone, or should they air show that appeal to a vast majority of their audience?
    You said yourself that ABC doesn't have shows that you enjoy watching. I made it clear earlier that it's about refusing to sell someone something that they have in stock.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    You said yourself that ABC doesn't have shows that you enjoy watching. I made it clear earlier that it's about refusing to sell someone something that they have in stock.
    And I'm saying the cake store didn't have figures in stock to allow for 2 male or 2 female figures to be sold and still be able to satisfy their largest group of consumers without ordering more figures.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    And I'm saying the cake store didn't have figures in stock to allow for 2 male or 2 female figures to be sold and still be able to satisfy their largest group of consumers without ordering more figures.
    And I'm telling you for the fourth time that you don't know that. The owner of the shop didn't even say that. Surely, if what you're saying was true, he'd have stated that.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    And I'm telling you for the fourth time that you don't know that. The owner of the shop didn't even say that. Surely, if what you're saying was true, he'd have stated that.
    You're right, I don't know that, anymore than you know that if it is or isn't.

    So do you think that a cake shop owner who is anti-gun should be forced to decorate a cake with guns all over it? Or what if I walk into a cake shop with a black owner and ask for a cake decorated with KKK members on it? Should they have to serve me? I really hope the answer to both of those is "NO!"

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