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Thread: Seattle pass $15 minimum wage

  1. #11
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WILDJOKER5 View Post
    Dont forget about lowering quality. Adding in more "meat substitute" to spread the "real" meat out longer. Or washing the laundry less times a week in hotels.
    Do you really believe this shit, or are you just trying to drag on a useless argument?

    No doubt, if they did do something like this... they'd likely announce it first (as opposed to doing it quietly), as the sole purpose of them doing it would be to protest the minimum wage. Not as a money recovery method.

    Remember when corporate Papa John's and a Florida Denny's franchise tried to increase prices by a dime, and then announced to the world that they were doing it... when no one would have even noticed? Same deal. Political statements, and they want to be heard.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
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    Quote Originally Posted by SomeRandomGuy View Post
    Question: What is so magical about 13 years of school? If a 16 year old kid has learned all the basic skills they need and they have no desire to further their education why shouldn't they go ahead and enter the work force at 16?
    Because when they are 35 they'll be protesting that it's unfair they can't raise their family of 6 on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by FLAPS, USAF (ret) View Post
    Companies will figure out how to make up for the increased personnel costs. Options include reduced hours, reduced labor or higher prices.
    ...reduced margin :-O

    I am under the impression that the fast food business has huge margins. Yes, part of the reason for the huge margin is the very cheap labor costs they enjoy. I remember reading that a fountain soda that McDonald's sells for $2.35 or whatever, costs them about 9 cents to produce. In other words, their prices have very little to do with their costs and much more to do with what the market will bear. If they increased labor costs make the soda 15 cents to produce, do you really think they'll raise the price to 2.42, or will they simply take 6 less cents in margin?

    Let's assume that the economic analysis performed to arrive at $2.35 is pretty good, and that they've already decided that this price yields the best sales data.

    Here's another clue...it does not matter how much margin they are making...they are ALWAYS trying to figure out ways to make more...reduced hours, reduced labor or higher prices. If they thought you would pay 3.00 for that soda and buy just as many, they would already be charging that. If they thought they could perform the same service by reducing hours, they would have already reduced them.

    I will say the higher labor wages will likely induce some to invest in replacement technologoy, i.e. fast food automatic kiosks vs. cashier. But, that is going to happen anyway, but yes, raising the minimum wage will incentivize them to do it sooner rather than later.

    If I was a small business owner, then I would spend the 7 year transition period looking for ways to relocate outside of city limits. Add in the health care mandate, and I would also limit my business growth to stay under the employee # threshold for having to provide healthcare.
    That would depend on the nature of the business. If you are going to move your donut shop outside the city limits...well, that will just leave an opportunity for another donut shop where you left. Of course, you might make the donuts outside the city and truck them in everyday. So, yes, your point is valid in that some jobs will probably relocate. Fast food joints ain't going nowhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by SomeRandomGuy View Post
    I had a friend in high school who landed a job as a busboy at Olive Garden right out of high school. The waiters and waitresses at Olive Garden make pretty good money and they all tip the bussers. His parents became concerned that he wouldn't be interested in going to college because he was already making close to $20 an hour just working at Olive Garden. The same thing could happen with $15 minimum wage. My biggest concern is what he $15 minimum wage would do the the prices of goods not how it effects the worker.
    It does not affect the prices that much...prices are set at what the market will bear. It may cut down on production since margins will be lower.

    Higher minumum wage hurts people who are not working or those living on a fixed income such as social security. If McDonalds pays everyone $15 per hour they sure as heck won't be selling cheeseburgers for a $1 anymore.
    It is possible that McDonald's today is not making any money on that $1 cheeseburger...they are giving away $1 cheeseburgers in order to sell you the $2.35 soda. So, if labor rates went up, then I agree they are probably not going to take a loss on that $1 cheeseburger and maybe make it a $1.25 cheeseburger in order to get you in there to purchase the $2.35 soda.

    Your point is valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by WILDJOKER5 View Post
    I fully agree. Like how we have paid attention to Detroit and Chicago and New Orleans, and Atlanta, and...well, just name a democrat city not taxed out their minds. I guess Seattle is trying to attract all the low skilled, under educated people they can get to work these lowest of the totem poll jobs they can get. Honestly, if I had my choice between Seattle or North Dakota, I think I am going to ND to help out with the oil instead of Seattle to flip burgers.
    I hear they have openings!
    Last edited by Measure Man; 06-03-2014 at 03:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Do you really believe this shit, or are you just trying to drag on a useless argument?

    No doubt, if they did do something like this... they'd likely announce it first (as opposed to doing it quietly), as the sole purpose of them doing it would be to protest the minimum wage. Not as a money recovery method.

    Remember when corporate Papa John's and a Florida Denny's franchise tried to increase prices by a dime, and then announced to the world that they were doing it... when no one would have even noticed? Same deal. Political statements, and they want to be heard.
    Yep...self-fulfilling prophecy. They complain that policies will generate certain results...and then they make it happen to prove they were right.

    Hell a year before Obamacare even kicked off their were companies cancelling their insurance plans "due to Obamacare."

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    Senior Member TJMAC77SP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Measure Man View Post
    Yep...self-fulfilling prophecy. They complain that policies will generate certain results...and then they make it happen to prove they were right.

    Hell a year before Obamacare even kicked off their were companies cancelling their insurance plans "due to Obamacare."
    Well, in fairness company costs and budgets are not a last minute thing. They have to be planned for. I am not saying you are not right in some instances but I know some companies (my last employer for one) had to position themselves ahead of time to reduce the cost increases they knew were coming (and arrived as predicted).

    Edit......meant to say MM is correct in some instances
    Last edited by TJMAC77SP; 06-03-2014 at 06:28 PM.
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    Senior Member WILDJOKER5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Do you really believe this shit, or are you just trying to drag on a useless argument?
    You honestly dont think that cutting quality and making up for a lower revenue can take the form of substituting cheaper materials for the product that is being made? Do you honestly think the only play a business will cut costs is by cutting the work force or raising prices. Guess why Taco Bell had 70% meat substitute in their tacos.

    No doubt, if they did do something like this... they'd likely announce it first (as opposed to doing it quietly), as the sole purpose of them doing it would be to protest the minimum wage. Not as a money recovery method.
    Sure, GM and Crysler announced it to the world that their quality of the cars they made were cut to protest the unions demanding more pay.

    Remember when corporate Papa John's and a Florida Denny's franchise tried to increase prices by a dime, and then announced to the world that they were doing it... when no one would have even noticed? Same deal. Political statements, and they want to be heard.
    Some do. A dime is one thing, cutting the quality is another. Remember when ice cream cut back on the portions they sold to "lower the calories" and kept the same prices?
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    Quote Originally Posted by WILDJOKER5 View Post
    You honestly dont think that cutting quality and making up for a lower revenue can take the form of substituting cheaper materials for the product that is being made? Do you honestly think the only play a business will cut costs is by cutting the work force or raising prices. Guess why Taco Bell had 70% meat substitute in their tacos.

    Sure, GM and Crysler announced it to the world that their quality of the cars they made were cut to protest the unions demanding more pay.

    Some do. A dime is one thing, cutting the quality is another. Remember when ice cream cut back on the portions they sold to "lower the calories" and kept the same prices?
    Popped a bag of microwave popcorn the other day and noticed it seemed to not be as full. Sure enough checked the box and the unpopped corn was a quarter ounce less.
    Also, you're probably aware of the mandate for fast food chains who are serving in like the AAFEES food courts to pay a higher wage based on the revised wage determinations and are pulling out because of that.
    Do you think they just want to stay comparable with "downtown" or hurting their pocketbooks?

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    Senior Member WILDJOKER5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retiredAFcivvy View Post
    Popped a bag of microwave popcorn the other day and noticed it seemed to not be as full. Sure enough checked the box and the unpopped corn was a quarter ounce less.
    Also, you're probably aware of the mandate for fast food chains who are serving in like the AAFEES food courts to pay a higher wage based on the revised wage determinations and are pulling out because of that.
    Do you think they just want to stay comparable with "downtown" or hurting their pocketbooks?
    I know that, I was just giving a third option on ways a business can stay profitable. We do it at home, I mix flax seed in burgers to make the meat go further. There are only a few ways a business changes when their profits start to shrink; up the price, shrink the labor costs, and degrade the product materials.
    Progressivism; such great ideas, they need to force you to follow them.

    Socialism is for the people, not the socialist.

    Economic Left/Right: 7.38
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.08
    politicalcompass.org

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    Senior Member AJBIGJ's Avatar
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    Let there be a Starbucks at every corner, and occupying every building in between those corners.

    But seriously, I am curious what this will do towards which low-skilled workers will be getting employed. I do have a feeling people with higher skill bases may more frequently travel to Seattle from outside and seek jobs that really don't require an Associates Degree to perform effectively, but since there will be sufficient interested parties the people who took the time to get there will look a bit more attractive for those minimum wage positions then the teenager in his Junior Year of High School.

    The other migration I'm a bit concerned about is whether businesses themselves will migrate accordingly. I suppose it depends on operational cost considerations. People have brought up another good point, what good really is $15 an hour when everything you have around you costs 20% more? I am actually an advocate of localities such as this determining for themselves their "Minimum Wage" (as opposed to Federal imposition). Cities have a much better handle on their local costs of living and may actually be able to set a price floor without a significant impact on their employment numbers. If their local economies can afford it the changes might actually force some local establishments to give their employees a better deal if they really are unscrupulous in their dealings. If it wasn't such a good arbitrary labor price floor that will pan out over the years and decades along with the flow of people out of there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJBIGJ View Post
    Let there be a Starbucks at every corner, and occupying every building in between those corners.

    But seriously, I am curious what this will do towards which low-skilled workers will be getting employed. I do have a feeling people with higher skill bases may more frequently travel to Seattle from outside and seek jobs that really don't require an Associates Degree to perform effectively, but since there will be sufficient interested parties the people who took the time to get there will look a bit more attractive for those minimum wage positions then the teenager in his Junior Year of High School.

    The other migration I'm a bit concerned about is whether businesses themselves will migrate accordingly. I suppose it depends on operational cost considerations. People have brought up another good point, what good really is $15 an hour when everything you have around you costs 20% more? I am actually an advocate of localities such as this determining for themselves their "Minimum Wage" (as opposed to Federal imposition). Cities have a much better handle on their local costs of living and may actually be able to set a price floor without a significant impact on their employment numbers. If their local economies can afford it the changes might actually force some local establishments to give their employees a better deal if they really are unscrupulous in their dealings. If it wasn't such a good arbitrary labor price floor that will pan out over the years and decades along with the flow of people out of there.
    Agree that there shouldn't be a set Federal minimum wage. At most, there should be something allowing for locality rates, as you stated.

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    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    It never ceases to amaze me how many of you are lapdogs for the rich.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

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