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Thread: Change of heart

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    We shouldn't have to walk on eggshells.

    If I say something that offends someone, they should tell me and I'll stop. However, I've never had that happen, nor have most people I know. We've just been told from others what we can't do or say because it MAY offend someone. And I'm not just talking about within the military...I'm talking about in general.
    Perhaps some truth in that. Also, perhaps part of it is the alleged offending party does not understand the offense and then spouts out hyperbole about it.

    For example, I've never met an atheist that was offended by a private greeting of "Merry Christmas"...or a Jew, Muslim, etc. Some atheists, however, do believe in the concept of separation of church and state, very strongly. (even if those exact words are not in the Constitution). So, they may rail against people using thier Govt. Positions and Offices from issuing religious greetings etc. Then the Todd Starneses of the world do not understand the difference so they lament about this War on Christianity and how we are all offended by Christmas, and how saying Happy Holidays is an affront to Christans everywhere, and it's Poltical Correctness gone amok...yada yada yada.

    Similarly...cross thread reference...No ONE is going to accuse any supervisor of being homophobic simply for not being able to release Airmen fo the gay pride run....YOU are being politically correct, sir. YOU are the one assuming offense of someone else where there is none.

  2. #142
    Senior Member Absinthe Anecdote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Measure Man View Post
    Perhaps some truth in that. Also, perhaps part of it is the alleged offending party does not understand the offense and then spouts out hyperbole about it.

    For example, I've never met an atheist that was offended by a private greeting of "Merry Christmas"...or a Jew, Muslim, etc. Some atheists, however, do believe in the concept of separation of church and state, very strongly. (even if those exact words are not in the Constitution). So, they may rail against people using thier Govt. Positions and Offices from issuing religious greetings etc. Then the Todd Starneses of the world do not understand the difference so they lament about this War on Christianity and how we are all offended by Christmas, and how saying Happy Holidays is an affront to Christans everywhere, and it's Poltical Correctness gone amok...yada yada yada.

    Similarly...cross thread reference...No ONE is going to accuse any supervisor of being homophobic simply for not being able to release Airmen fo the gay pride run....YOU are being politically correct, sir. YOU are the one assuming offense of someone else where there is none.
    I really wish that I could make that text flash.

    Read that post very carefully Sandsjames, because that post just blew your weak argument to shreds and the last line puts the tiny pieces in the dust bin.
    All behold that fancy strutting peacock, the bake sale diva...

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Measure Man View Post
    Perhaps some truth in that. Also, perhaps part of it is the alleged offending party does not understand the offense and then spouts out hyperbole about it.

    For example, I've never met an atheist that was offended by a private greeting of "Merry Christmas"...or a Jew, Muslim, etc. Some atheists, however, do believe in the concept of separation of church and state, very strongly. (even if those exact words are not in the Constitution). So, they may rail against people using thier Govt. Positions and Offices from issuing religious greetings etc. Then the Todd Starneses of the world do not understand the difference so they lament about this War on Christianity and how we are all offended by Christmas, and how saying Happy Holidays is an affront to Christans everywhere, and it's Poltical Correctness gone amok...yada yada yada.

    Similarly...cross thread reference...No ONE is going to accuse any supervisor of being homophobic simply for not being able to release Airmen fo the gay pride run....YOU are being politically correct, sir. YOU are the one assuming offense of someone else where there is none.
    I'm not assuming anything. I've seen apprehension based on fear of reprecussion. No assumption needed.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe Anecdote View Post
    I really wish that I could make that text flash.

    Read that post very carefully Sandsjames, because that post just blew your weak argument to shreds and the last line puts the tiny pieces in the dust bin.
    Yep, it sure did. My argument is no longer valid. As a matter of fact, whenever someone says an argument is invalid it definitely is. Especially when that person stating that it's invalid disagreed with the argument in the first place

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Measure Man View Post

    For example, I've never met an atheist that was offended by a private greeting of "Merry Christmas"...or a Jew, Muslim, etc. Some atheists, however, do believe in the concept of separation of church and state, very strongly. (even if those exact words are not in the Constitution). So, they may rail against people using thier Govt. Positions and Offices from issuing religious greetings etc. Then the Todd Starneses of the world do not understand the difference so they lament about this War on Christianity and how we are all offended by Christmas, and how saying Happy Holidays is an affront to Christans everywhere, and it's Poltical Correctness gone amok...yada yada yada.
    I'll agree with those Atheists when it comes to the military. The position should not make any comments, support, or opposition, to anything political or religious.

  6. #146
    Senior Member Stalwart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    I used to hate the term "politically correct," as it was once the scapegoat for every single problem in our society. Name a problem in our society - any problem - and someone can attribute it to "politcal correctness."

    In recent years, however, "sense of entitlement" has replaced it. I find that "sense of entitlement" is far more versatile because it's not just used as a scapegoat for societal problems, but you can also attribute any and all individual personality flaws to "sense of entitlement."
    I see your point but rarely do I hear comments that a "sense of entitlement" is ruining the military vice "political correctness" being the problem.

    I will admit that oversensitivity and the desire to not offend anyone has crept up. But don't agree that it is always "politically correct" to do things like have a professional workplace, treat people with dignity and respect etc.

    You may be able to talk to a coworker and tell off-color or obscene jokes and use foul language etc. and and he/she not care, but the coworker in the next cubicle or work area who overhears your conversation has a right to not be in an environment like that if they don't want to and let's face it ... we default on the side of not offending people ... we should.

    I too often see people that think things like:

    1. Repeal DADT = political correctness -- instead of a realization that society and what is generally acceptable has changed; the military is a culture unto itself but is still formed by a cross section of our society. Since when did being homosexual make someone less brave or less qualified to do a job than someone who isn't? The same argument was made about desegregating the military, allowing women to serve or attend the service academies etc.

    2. Mandatory annual sexual harassment training = political correctness -- instead of an acknowledgement that many people still have a way to go when it comes to acting professionally in a work environment ... the majority do get it right, but the training is also preventative vice corrective.

    3. Female/minority/homosexual promoted instead of me = political correctness -- instead of taking an earnest look at what the promotion criteria was, what they did to meet it and what I did to meet it. Even if I am a superstar was it properly reflected in my evaluations?

    As I have said before, as individuals we are all shitty judges of truth when it comes to our own shortcomings and often that results in us looking for something to blame things on when we fall short vice something we did or didn't do to make it happen. It is easier to blame "political correctness" than to acknowledge we may have been wrong, times may have changed or that we are just falling short of the mark.
    Last edited by Stalwart; 06-13-2014 at 02:32 PM.

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stalwart View Post
    2. Mandatory annual sexual harassment training = political correctness -- instead of an acknowledgement that many people still have a way to go when it comes to acting professionally in a work environment ... the majority do get it right, but the training is also preventative vice corrective.
    Today is our SAPR day. I, as are most, am against sexual assault. If I've had one beer I won't even fondle myself. That is my disclaimer.

    The "training", however, is just a way to CYA. Those who aren't going to offend aren't going to offend and those who are aren't going to stop because of the "training".

    Ironically, or sadly, or funnily, however you want to view it, it has actually increased the amount of jokes and comments taking place around the shop today than we ever have, with many mocking the obvious points that were made during the "training".

    I guess the main thing I can't figure out is why anyone needs training on how not to break the law, no matter what the subject is.

  8. #148
    Senior Member Stalwart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    Today is our SAPR day. I, as are most, am against sexual assault. If I've had one beer I won't even fondle myself. That is my disclaimer.

    The "training", however, is just a way to CYA. Those who aren't going to offend aren't going to offend and those who are aren't going to stop because of the "training".
    I won't disagree that the training can come across like a canned CYA/check in the box event. Creativity, imagination and effort can make it better than it generally is.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    I guess the main thing I can't figure out is why anyone needs training on how not to break the law, no matter what the subject is.
    I agree with you (especially the part I bolded) it shouldn't be necessary but, as I read a report on the relief of a former Commanding Officer of the Navy's Blue Angels (CAPT = O6), the following tells me that people still don't get what is okay and what is not. And when those people are senior, it filters down the chain of command. For example:

    "CAPT McWherter explained that he thought the pornography (in the cockpits of the aircraft) was appropriate because it reflected a special trust shared between the pilot and crew chief."

    "The GroupMe conversations contained pornographic pictures, often of male genitalia."

    "The GroupMe conversations often contained vulgar, homophobic, and sexually suggestive statements from members of the Blue Angels, both associated with, and independent of, the aforementioned pornographic pictures."

    "CAPT McWherter did not make any GroupMe posts that would have served to stop pornographic pictures or sexually-charged conversations from being posted on that venue, nor did he mandate their termination at Ready Room meetings."

    "Beginning in 2011, enlisted videographers filming airshows for post-event analysis would frequently scan the crowd and allow the video to linger on beachgoers and other members of the audience, often based on the attractiveness of the person. The practice was not overtly required, but doing so was a passdown item from videographer to videographer."

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe Anecdote View Post
    What is it about Political Correctness that pisses you off so much?
    Maybe the whole "Don't do anything/say anything that MAY (not has, but May) offend someone" aspect.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    I know this wasn't directed at me, but I'll answer.

    The biggest problem with PC is that it's been created by people not directly involved. It's become popular because people are worried that someone else MAY be offended. Everything is considered abuse, bullying, racism, sexism, ageism, etc. This has led to everyone thinking they are special.

    What is has created is a culture of people getting their feelings hurt because they can't deal with the truth. It has created a culture of an overabundance of telling everyone they are great.
    Exactly. When i went through school, if you were failing, the teacher told you so. If you messed up in class, the teacher called you out on it. If you screwed up big time you got punished. Now days, we are so concerned with "not harming their emotional development' we don't call them out, or if we do its not done in front of others so they have that peer pressure on them to shape up'.
    Back then if you bommbed a test, you got all sorts of red marks and a big "F" back, now days you can't use red cause it might offend the child.

    Quote Originally Posted by Measure Man View Post
    I guess we'll have to talk specifics...we might have a different definition of PC.

    What the Clippers owner said, was not PC...how should a black person feel about it? Offended or happy to hear the truth?

    I struggle with that one...PC has become a bit of a cop-out...the villian there is sterling, don't you think? Yeah, maybe he was set up, yeah, he was recorded without his knowledge...but still...those words can't come out of his mouth unless they are in his brain.

    Is it "wrong" to have those thoughts? Maybe not...it is definitely Politically Incorrect, but I'm not sure it should be Politically Acceptable either!
    And while i agree Mr Sterling was wrong for what he said. One of the 2 main issues i have with that whole debacle is that he said it in PRIVATE to someone he thought was his friend. If you can't even say what's on your mind to your friend, even if someone else may find it offensive, whom can you say it to? Or are you not even supposed to think it? The other was the taping being released. If i am on trial and that tape came out, and can't be used against, me, HOW is it legal for him to receive such a massive punishment (perma ban, massive fine AND being forced to sell what he owns)?

    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    I'm not talking about being a total dick. I'm talking about having to be careful with what I say in a normal conversation.

    Luckily, it's still ok to make fun of the stupidity of dads in every single television commercial. Once that's gone, I don't know what, or who, we'll be able to laugh at.
    I mentioned that aspect (the commercials) to someone at the Con i am currently attending and she agreed that it is strange how nearly every commercial where its a dad being a parent, they are presented as bumbling or just incompetant. And since she said she knew plenty of mothers who are just as bad as the 'dads' those adverts have, why not show that in those ads. BUT we both agreed they won't do that, just so as to not offend women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stalwart View Post
    You may be able to talk to a coworker and tell off-color or obscene jokes and use foul language etc. and and he/she not care, but the coworker in the next cubicle or work area who overhears your conversation has a right to not be in an environment like that if they don't want to and let's face it ... we default on the side of not offending people ... we should.
    On that aspect, what gets me is when it IS the 'offended one' (nearly always an ethnic minority or female) who is also joining in the joke telling, but as soon as someone (male or white) tells one that they find wrong, gets all 'twisted up' about it.
    My mantra on that, is if you are unwilling to take a ribbing, don't give one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stalwart View Post
    3. Female/minority/homosexual promoted instead of me = political correctness -- instead of taking an earnest look at what the promotion criteria was, what they did to meet it and what I did to meet it. Even if I am a superstar was it properly reflected in my evaluations?

    As I have said before, as individuals we are all shitty judges of truth when it comes to our own shortcomings and often that results in us looking for something to blame things on when we fall short vice something we did or didn't do to make it happen. It is easier to blame "political correctness" than to acknowledge we may have been wrong, times may have changed or that we are just falling short of the mark.
    As to that aspect. As someone who has sat on several dozen Sailor of the year/quarter boards (or junior sailor boards) and seen 2-3 equally 'qualified' people, but one is either an ethnic minority or a female (or both) get the nod just cause OF that reason, it does grate people the wrong way.

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