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Thread: Change of heart

  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    I know this wasn't directed at me, but I'll answer.

    The biggest problem with PC is that it's been created by people not directly involved. It's become popular because people are worried that someone else MAY be offended. Everything is considered abuse, bullying, racism, sexism, ageism, etc. This has led to everyone thinking they are special.
    I'm a member of "Chief" page...and the term PC or Politically-Correct is thrown around a lot there as the root cause of all the problems of the AF, the US and maybe the world. Everything that happens is "because of PC this and that." Yes, it is pretty much like an electronic VFW, with a bunch of retirees sitting at the bar talking about how bad-ass things were in the brown shoe days...when all Airmen jumped and shouted "Yes, sir" at the slight suggestion of a task by any NCO.

    Anyway...so, as with any Chief's Group, the topics of American Indian symbols comes up now and then...and of course, the "offense" to it, by the majority is dismissed as just a bunch of PC bullshit, etc. etc.

    Another post came up about some rapper dude wearing a military something...and of course the whole "Stolen Valor" deal went on and on about how this guy didn't deserve to wear that, etc. etc.

    One astute observer wrote something...like, "he is honoring us...same way we honor the Indians by wearing their Chief headdresss, etc."

    Kind of dawned on me then.... PC bullshit is when someone else takes offense. Trampling on the honor, tradition...or unjustly stereoyping, profiling, caricaturing a group is when WE or someone we love is offended.

    What is has created is a culture of people getting their feelings hurt because they can't deal with the truth. It has created a culture of an overabundance of telling everyone they are great.
    I do think there is an overabundence of people searching for offensive things.

    But, everyone is great at something.

    You know who the funniest comedians are? Those who make fun of other people. They make fun of all races, all sexes, all sizes, all cultures, etc. People find it funny because on an every day basis it's stuff people aren't allowed to say but everybody is thinking.
    The differences between blacks and whites, women and men, latinos and blacks and whites, etc. schtick is getting old for me...you can almost predict the jokes now, they're not that funny anymore. I mean, I turn on Comedy Central and see a black comedian...you know he's gonna talk most about race. I most prefer the comedians with astute observations a la George Carlin, Steven Wright, Mitch Hedberg...I'll throw Chris Rock in there, although he did a lot of race stuff, it is smarter than the typical "black people ain't gonna stick around for no snake..." Even Jerry Seinfeld type of everyday observation.

    PC doesn't protect people. It opens them up to more disappointment when they finally hear the truth.
    I guess we'll have to talk specifics...we might have a different definition of PC.

    What the Clippers owner said, was not PC...how should a black person feel about it? Offended or happy to hear the truth?

    I struggle with that one...PC has become a bit of a cop-out...the villian there is sterling, don't you think? Yeah, maybe he was set up, yeah, he was recorded without his knowledge...but still...those words can't come out of his mouth unless they are in his brain.

    Is it "wrong" to have those thoughts? Maybe not...it is definitely Politically Incorrect, but I'm not sure it should be Politically Acceptable either!

    The PC wave has definitely made comments/thoughts like his go underground...and maybe that's a problem, I dunno. It's either that or we accept them as an alternative lifestyle..ha! I think that's why also, there is a lot of suspicion that racism takes on subtle innuendo these days...it's not PC to say "the blacks..." so there is a suspicion that this what people mean when they say "the welfare recipients..."

    There is suspicion that when people say, "Obama was not born in the US..." that the really mean, "He is not like us...he is black, has a funny name"...yes, that is why some GOP/Cons made a point of saying his middle name Barack HUSSEIN Obama...hoping that his middle name would drive home the point that policies or not, he's not like you...he's funny...and not funny ha-ha. so, while PC is the fad...there probably is more suspicion because everyone knows that there are racists, but they are not as easy to identify anymore.

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Measure Man View Post
    I'm a member of "Chief" page...and the term PC or Politically-Correct is thrown around a lot there as the root cause of all the problems of the AF, the US and maybe the world. Everything that happens is "because of PC this and that." Yes, it is pretty much like an electronic VFW, with a bunch of retirees sitting at the bar talking about how bad-ass things were in the brown shoe days...when all Airmen jumped and shouted "Yes, sir" at the slight suggestion of a task by any NCO.

    Anyway...so, as with any Chief's Group, the topics of American Indian symbols comes up now and then...and of course, the "offense" to it, by the majority is dismissed as just a bunch of PC bullshit, etc. etc.

    Another post came up about some rapper dude wearing a military something...and of course the whole "Stolen Valor" deal went on and on about how this guy didn't deserve to wear that, etc. etc.

    One astute observer wrote something...like, "he is honoring us...same way we honor the Indians by wearing their Chief headdresss, etc."

    Kind of dawned on me then.... PC bullshit is when someone else takes offense. Trampling on the honor, tradition...or unjustly stereoyping, profiling, caricaturing a group is when WE or someone we love is offended.



    I do think there is an overabundence of people searching for offensive things.

    But, everyone is great at something.



    The differences between blacks and whites, women and men, latinos and blacks and whites, etc. schtick is getting old for me...you can almost predict the jokes now, they're not that funny anymore. I mean, I turn on Comedy Central and see a black comedian...you know he's gonna talk most about race. I most prefer the comedians with astute observations a la George Carlin, Steven Wright, Mitch Hedberg...I'll throw Chris Rock in there, although he did a lot of race stuff, it is smarter than the typical "black people ain't gonna stick around for no snake..." Even Jerry Seinfeld type of everyday observation.



    I guess we'll have to talk specifics...we might have a different definition of PC.

    What the Clippers owner said, was not PC...how should a black person feel about it? Offended or happy to hear the truth?

    I struggle with that one...PC has become a bit of a cop-out...the villian there is sterling, don't you think? Yeah, maybe he was set up, yeah, he was recorded without his knowledge...but still...those words can't come out of his mouth unless they are in his brain.

    Is it "wrong" to have those thoughts? Maybe not...it is definitely Politically Incorrect, but I'm not sure it should be Politically Acceptable either!

    The PC wave has definitely made comments/thoughts like his go underground...and maybe that's a problem, I dunno. It's either that or we accept them as an alternative lifestyle..ha! I think that's why also, there is a lot of suspicion that racism takes on subtle innuendo these days...it's not PC to say "the blacks..." so there is a suspicion that this what people mean when they say "the welfare recipients..."

    There is suspicion that when people say, "Obama was not born in the US..." that the really mean, "He is not like us...he is black, has a funny name"...yes, that is why some GOP/Cons made a point of saying his middle name Barack HUSSEIN Obama...hoping that his middle name would drive home the point that policies or not, he's not like you...he's funny...and not funny ha-ha. so, while PC is the fad...there probably is more suspicion because everyone knows that there are racists, but they are not as easy to identify anymore.
    The term "PC" relates to politicians trying to make a statement in a way that doesn't offend anyone in order to not lose votes from a certain demographic. This has turned into politicians not being able to create any policies that might actually work because they may not get re-elected. So, in the truest form of the phrase, "PC" has definitely hurt the people. You can't fix things without some people not being happy about it.

    The same happens in the military (and I'd guess many businesses/companies). The bosses can't run things in an effective way because they are afraid of what might happen if they say the wrong thing or give the perception of saying something wrong.

    I'm not saying we should be able to be rude and vulgar in certain situations, but I do think that we shouldn't be afraid of what we are discussing "just in case" someone might overhear and be offended.

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by garhkal View Post
    And why is it not acceptable? Are we so engrained into our Politically correct way of life we no longer see shaming someone for doing wrong as allowable?
    Or that we no longer engage in disgusting and barbaric behavior? Do you want us to burn people at the stake too?


    Is it? I know 3 people i have gamed with over the years at conventions, who were on welfare, and NEVER had to submit any paperwork showing their looking for work. I have heard stories from others that are the same.
    Now admittedly it may have been them lying about it, or their welfare office just not bothering to require that, but it does form my POV on it.
    Then I suggest you base your point of view on facts, not hearsay. Because everything requires paperwork. As someone who's drawn UI, let me tell you that if you are in any of these systems, the employment office can pull up your full record, including home address, social security number, work history, etc etc. Finding a job was actually less of a headache than continuing to draw UI, which I suppose is the point.

  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    The term "PC" relates to politicians trying to make a statement in a way that doesn't offend anyone in order to not lose votes from a certain demographic. This has turned into politicians not being able to create any policies that might actually work because they may not get re-elected. So, in the truest form of the phrase, "PC" has definitely hurt the people. You can't fix things without some people not being happy about it.
    I don't think that's a completely fair way to look at it. Being a bigot can actually be commercially successful. Heck, look at that baker who refused to serve gay people - allegedly his business has actually increased since then, because other people who hate gays have flocked to him. Presumably, a business that discriminated against Jews, Muslims, blacks or whatever could enjoy that success as well, because being "true to your beliefs" can attract like minded people.

    Fortunately, that shit is illegal for anyone offering a service or product to the public.
    The same happens in the military (and I'd guess many businesses/companies). The bosses can't run things in an effective way because they are afraid of what might happen if they say the wrong thing or give the perception of saying something wrong.
    I'm not sure I follow. Most of the shit that has been banned didn't have anything to do with "efficiency", just being a dick. Like for example forcing to new recruits to do humiliating and homoerotic shit (and no moderators, this isn't a "homophobic slur")

    I'm not saying we should be able to be rude and vulgar in certain situations, but I do think that we shouldn't be afraid of what we are discussing "just in case" someone might overhear and be offended.
    I hear you - and I've been on the wrong end of complaints before - luckily I have always been able to give my side of the story and not get thrown under the bus. There's really no way to establish a completely fair central policy, because in the end it is entirely dependent on unit leadership.

  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoDude View Post
    I don't think that's a completely fair way to look at it. Being a bigot can actually be commercially successful. Heck, look at that baker who refused to serve gay people - allegedly his business has actually increased since then, because other people who hate gays have flocked to him. Presumably, a business that discriminated against Jews, Muslims, blacks or whatever could enjoy that success as well, because being "true to your beliefs" can attract like minded people.

    Fortunately, that shit is illegal for anyone offering a service or product to the public.
    I'm not talking about discrimination. I'm talking about things such as telling a girl she looks nice...being concerned about whether or not one uses the word "black" or "African American", paying attention to whether I call the Airmen in my classes "airmen" or "students", wondering if it will be ok to send the new troop in the shop to look for some "striped safety paint" and telling them "not to shake it" because it might be considered hazing, etc.


    I'm not sure I follow. Most of the shit that has been banned didn't have anything to do with "efficiency", just being a dick. Like for example forcing to new recruits to do humiliating and homoerotic shit (and no moderators, this isn't a "homophobic slur")
    Guess it depends on your definition of humiliating. People are much easier humiliated today because they've been told they should be.



    I hear you - and I've been on the wrong end of complaints before - luckily I have always been able to give my side of the story and not get thrown under the bus. There's really no way to establish a completely fair central policy, because in the end it is entirely dependent on unit leadership.
    We shouldn't have to walk on eggshells.

    If I say something that offends someone, they should tell me and I'll stop. However, I've never had that happen, nor have most people I know. We've just been told from others what we can't do or say because it MAY offend someone. And I'm not just talking about within the military...I'm talking about in general.

    Why do you think people come to forums such as this and vent? It's not so they can be racist/sexist/etc. It's so they can say what's on their minds without fear of being labeled. That's why there's screen names. That's why there's anonymity. And, for the most part, we do just fine. Is offensive shit said on here? Yes. But I don't think, for the most part, that anyone is offended by it. Some of the stuff may sound stupid and give you an opinion of a guy but it's nothing that we can't deal with. And we all do it. We have all said stuff on here that we'd never say in a public, or even most private, situations. Not because what we're saying is bad or wrong, just that people can't deal with the truth in real life.

  6. #136
    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    I used to hate the term "politically correct," as it was once the scapegoat for every single problem in our society. Name a problem in our society - any problem - and someone can attribute it to "politcal correctness."

    In recent years, however, "sense of entitlement" has replaced it. I find that "sense of entitlement" is far more versatile because it's not just used as a scapegoat for societal problems, but you can also attribute any and all individual personality flaws to "sense of entitlement."

    To get back to "politcal correctness," people use this term with the implication that somehow, people who are offended by something are "weak" or they "can't handle the truth."

    And that's the problem... some people think that by being a total dick or offending people, that what they're saying is the truth, solely on that basis.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    I used to hate the term "politically correct," as it was once the scapegoat for every single problem in our society. Name a problem in our society - any problem - and someone can attribute it to "politcal correctness."

    In recent years, however, "sense of entitlement" has replaced it. I find that "sense of entitlement" is far more versatile because it's not just used as a scapegoat for societal problems, but you can also attribute any and all individual personality flaws to "sense of entitlement."

    To get back to "politcal correctness," people use this term with the implication that somehow, people who are offended by something are "weak" or they "can't handle the truth."

    And that's the problem... some people think that by being a total dick or offending people, that what they're saying is the truth, solely on that basis.
    I'm not talking about being a total dick. I'm talking about having to be careful with what I say in a normal conversation.

    Luckily, it's still ok to make fun of the stupidity of dads in every single television commercial. Once that's gone, I don't know what, or who, we'll be able to laugh at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    I'm not talking about being a total dick. I'm talking about having to be careful with what I say in a normal conversation.

    Luckily, it's still ok to make fun of the stupidity of dads in every single television commercial. Once that's gone, I don't know what, or who, we'll be able to laugh at.
    I think that's actually starting to change - with the female characters getting made fun of just as much as the males - like Its Always Sunny in Philadelphia, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    I'm not talking about discrimination. I'm talking about things such as telling a girl she looks nice...
    Its a matter of whether or not the other person is offended. So if its a girl who is going to take it the wrong way... or even MIGHT take it the wrong way... don't say it. Yeah it sucks but I don't think there's any completely "fair" way the organization can handle it.

    being concerned about whether or not one uses the word "black" or "African American",
    I have yet to meet anyone who is offended by "black".

    paying attention to whether I call the Airmen in my classes "airmen" or "students", wondering if it will be ok to send the new troop in the shop to look for some "striped safety paint" and telling them "not to shake it" because it might be considered hazing, etc.

    Guess it depends on your definition of humiliating. People are much easier humiliated today because they've been told they should be.
    I would consider being forced to masturbate in front of everyone, or getting anally probed as "humiliating" - but I digress, I might just be too sensitive.




    We shouldn't have to walk on eggshells.

    If I say something that offends someone, they should tell me and I'll stop. However, I've never had that happen, nor have most people I know. We've just been told from others what we can't do or say because it MAY offend someone. And I'm not just talking about within the military...I'm talking about in general.

    Why do you think people come to forums such as this and vent? It's not so they can be racist/sexist/etc. It's so they can say what's on their minds without fear of being labeled. That's why there's screen names. That's why there's anonymity. And, for the most part, we do just fine. Is offensive shit said on here? Yes. But I don't think, for the most part, that anyone is offended by it. Some of the stuff may sound stupid and give you an opinion of a guy but it's nothing that we can't deal with. And we all do it. We have all said stuff on here that we'd never say in a public, or even most private, situations. Not because what we're saying is bad or wrong, just that people can't deal with the truth in real life.
    Yes, but things said on the internet have no effect on you. Let's say the majority of your section was non-white, and your section chief was black. He's always saying things like "man, fuck white people!" - then you get an EPR that's less than stellar. Even if his bullets are all fairly written, I bet you couldn't help but think there was some racial bias in it... especially if the other non-whites got a better rating than you.
    Last edited by GeoDude; 06-12-2014 at 03:21 PM.

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoDude View Post
    I think that's actually starting to change - with the female characters getting made fun of just as much as the males - like Its Always Sunny in Philadelphia, for example.



    Its a matter of whether or not the other person is offended. So if its a girl who is going to take it the wrong way... or even MIGHT take it the wrong way... don't say it. Yeah it sucks but I don't think there's any completely "fair" way the organization can handle it.
    Right, but because it might offend someone or have the appearance of offending someone it can't be done at all without a fear of reprecussion.


    I have yet to meet anyone who is offended by "black".
    Ok...



    I would consider being forced to masturbate in front of everyone, or getting anally probed as "humiliating" - but I digress, I might just be too sensitive.
    I would agree, too. As I think the majority of sane people would.

    However, there is a difference between humiliation and embarrassment. The word "humiliation" is as overused as the word "amazing". Sending a troop to the dog kennels on base to get some "K9-P" fluid for the generator isn't humiliating. Something that simple is now considered hazing and is not allowed.

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    I used to hate the term "politically correct," as it was once the scapegoat for every single problem in our society. Name a problem in our society - any problem - and someone can attribute it to "politcal correctness."

    In recent years, however, "sense of entitlement" has replaced it. I find that "sense of entitlement" is far more versatile because it's not just used as a scapegoat for societal problems, but you can also attribute any and all individual personality flaws to "sense of entitlement."

    To get back to "politcal correctness," people use this term with the implication that somehow, people who are offended by something are "weak" or they "can't handle the truth."

    And that's the problem... some people think that by being a total dick or offending people, that what they're saying is the truth, solely on that basis.
    I get that a lot with a certain person on this forum. He makes wild generalizations about entire ethnic groups... then when someone calls him out on it he's like "It's just the facts!"

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