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Thread: Watch Rotation Changes

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    Senior Member Stalwart's Avatar
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    Re: Watch Rotation Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    There's not supposed to be a "WEPS" department on a smallboy. At least not a DDG. Think I'm full of it? Go ask any 3MC on a DDG. "WEPS" on smallboys only exist in practice, but not on paper because they need to find something for all of these officers to do. What you've been led to believe is "WEPS" is actually Combat System. Yes, they might be legit "WEPS" on bigger ships, but not DDGs.
    .
    BUPERS has billets for them there and there is a whole course of instruction for DDG WEPS at DH school ... I know what you are getting at with 3M, but per the SORM ... DDGs have a Weapons Officer.

    At the same time, they are also supposed to have a Electronic Warfare Officer & Signals Warfare / Cryptology Officer, but on DDGs those are mostly combined into the same guy (the RL SIGWO.) I was our Operations Officer for a large portion of my tour since our OPS was relieved and no replacement came aboard ... steep learning curve but it worked out.

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    Senior Member AJBIGJ's Avatar
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    Re: Watch Rotation Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Stalwart View Post
    BUPERS has billets for them there and there is a whole course of instruction for DDG WEPS at DH school ... I know what you are getting at with 3M, but per the SORM ... DDGs have a Weapons Officer.

    At the same time, they are also supposed to have a Electronic Warfare Officer & Signals Warfare / Cryptology Officer, but on DDGs those are mostly combined into the same guy (the RL SIGWO.) I was our Operations Officer for a large portion of my tour since our OPS was relieved and no replacement came aboard ... steep learning curve but it worked out.
    That and it allows for a nominal back-to-back DH tours for SWOs. I know the going in mentality is they wanted CSO to be a Second Tour slot due to the complexity and this gives the opportunity for a junior DH to get some seasoning on the same platform first.
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    Senior Member Stalwart's Avatar
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    "Officers get more sleep than enlisted, but neither get enough, survey finds"

    http://www.navytimes.com/apps/pbcs.d...=2014310120012

    This article makes some good points / raises some good issues:

    -Officers have staterooms, yes ... if I wanted I could go to my room, shut the door and take a nap. I did on occasion.
    -I never heard of an enlisted berthing area that was "off limits" during the work day. But can see that during sweepers (daily cleaning) it would be impossible to get sleep.
    -Telling people that they cannot go to sleep until they get X number of signatures on a PQS that day is stupid. Some signatures are simple (state the mission of the Navy) and some are incredibly complicated (trace the route of a molecule of air from intake through the gas turbine to the exhaust point.)

    When on a DDG and underway, everyone is a watchstander and there is a certain level of "suck it up buttercup" that everyone endures. I think the only time I ever got 8 hours of sleep in a row was when I came off the eve watch on Sat (2200) and could sleep undisturbed until my next watch. The Navy really screws up the concept of rest though, and we do it (for the most part) to ourselves. Yes, there are times that manning is low or a turnover of that renders you good on numbers / low on qualified people (I stood TAO in a port & starboard rotation for 5 weeks as a result -- CSO and I got spelled on occasion by the XO or CO when we needed a bit more rest.)

    Big picture is that this is a safety issue. The aviation community has the 'crew rest' concept -- requiring a set amount of rest before a mission. Some submarine platforms have gone this route and seen productivity and morale improve, the surface fleet is much less inclined and the only reason I really see is an aversion to something out of the norm "this is the way it was for us, so this is how it should always be." I have read many ... many JAGMANs on collisions, untoward incidents and "near misses" and proper rest is almost always at least a mitigating circumstance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stalwart View Post
    "Officers get more sleep than enlisted, but neither get enough, survey finds"
    And in other news fire is hot and water is wet. Next you'll be telling officers eat better then enlisted people but overall military food still sucks or that officers get paid better then enlisted people but overall military pay still sucks.

    Seriously is there anything you could put into X where "Study finds X is worse for enlisted people than officers, but overall X still sucks for the military" wouldn't be 100% accurate?

    -Officers have staterooms, yes ... if I wanted I could go to my room, shut the door and take a nap. I did on occasion.
    I've never met an officer that had an issue hitting their pit for a little while when they needed it.

    -I never heard of an enlisted berthing area that was "off limits" during the work day.
    Because enlisted berthings are almost without fail p-ways with racks in them. You don't have to go through a stateroom to get somewhere. There's no care put into the quality of life of blueshirts so putting a berthing in such a place as crowds of people have to walk through it to get places makes perfect sense to the Navy.

    The aviation community has the 'crew rest' concept -- requiring a set amount of rest before a mission.
    Yeah but if we start making a list of things the Aviation Master Race gets that us poor redheaded surface sailor stepchildren get we'd be here all day.

    Respect, dignity, sleep, clothing that doesn't kill us in a fire. We obviously don't deserve such things like all the Mavericks and Gooses and Icemen do.

    But my point is like most issues this isn't a problem with a policy or a rule. It's a mentality. I don't if "the book" says every sailor has to get 8 hours of sleep in a dark room with no noises, a Chief or Officer that doesn't care about his people will still find a way to screw that sailor over and a good Chief or Officer isn't waiting on big Navy to give them permission to treat their sailors like humans.
    Last edited by JoeMorgue; 10-15-2014 at 11:27 AM.
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    Senior Member Stalwart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
    And in other news fire is hot and water is wet. Next you'll be telling officers eat better then enlisted people but overall military food still sucks or that officers get paid better then enlisted people buts overall military pay still sucks.
    It is more often than not the exact same food, served on plates instead of trays.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
    I've never met an officer that had an issue hitting their pit for a little while when they needed it.
    Nor should they have an issue before taking the deck of a warship, standing TAO etc. ensure they are able to assume their watch. The bigger point is that junior guys should also have that available.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
    Because enlisted berthings are almost without fail p-ways with racks in them. You don't have to go through a stateroom to get somewhere. There's no care put into the quality of life of blueshirts so putting a berthing in such a place as crowds of people have to walk through it to get places makes perfect sense to the Navy.
    On the LHA's, DDG's, CG's and SSN's i have deployed on they aren't really passageways, but yeah ... In a 75 person berthing space you have to allow for foot traffic. I have how're seen many ships & boats that if the berthing residents while underway could keep the space clean would only do sweepers every other or every third day, so people could rest. I don't want someone missing an inbound suspicious track, not securing a line properly, or cutting an energized wire because they can't keep their eyes open.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
    Respect, dignity, sleep, clothing that doesn't kill us in a fire. We obviously don't deserve such things like all the Mavericks and Gooses and Icemen do.
    Nope, usually it is smoke, fume and/or flame. In 24 years, 11 at se I have seen exactly 3 fires; I personally helped fight 2, the point there -- we have to be ready for fires, combat, etc ... but by and large that is something most will never see ... dangerous but routine evolutions populate our Plan of the Day and we have to be smart about it. I have seen far more collisions, mishaps and mistakes because people had been awake 24, 36, 48+ hours ... Which barring constant combat is a failure of the people in charge. Now, for respect and dignity ... Take care of people and they take care of you, plain and simple. Rank gives someone authority and that is all. People surpass the bare minimum because they are motivated, some people are self-motivated and some are motivated by leaders; a collar device does not make someone a leader.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
    But my point is like most issues this isn't a problem with a policy or a rule. It's a mentality. I don't if "the book" says every sailor has to get 8 hours of sleep in a dark room with no noises, a Chief or Officer that doesn't care about his people will still find a way to screw that sailor over and a good Chief or Officer isn't waiting on big Navy to give them permission to treat their sailors like humans.
    I don't know more than 1 or 2 khaki's I ever saw trying to screw a Sailor over. Admittedly, the system isn't perfect, which is the point. LCS's have enlisted staterooms to make this better, newer big deck amphibs are equipped with better berthing spaces ... But yes, the culture is in need of addressing. Why is it a point of pride in the surface and subsurface force to needlessly endanger the ship and her crew for the sake of not developing a better watch rotation than the one we currently use? I have jumped out of various aircraft 247 times, until the point I exit the aircraft my life is in the hands of the pilot, the cre chief, the maintenance guy, the guy who chicks and chains the bird etc.; I don't want them to cut a corner (conciously or not) because they are tired. I don't want the OOD, or GSE to make an entirely avoidable error.
    Last edited by Stalwart; 10-15-2014 at 01:55 PM.
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