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Thread: Integrity question

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    Senior Member Shaken1976's Avatar
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    Integrity question

    or more than one...based on a few things that happened here recently...

    Member goes to PT test. Passes test no problem...not an excellent. Scores are put into AFFMS wrong and score comes out 2 points higher than was supposed to be. Does not mean difference between sat and excellent. Do you speak up? or let it go?

    Your last EPR is a referral. You discover that somehow the code has lifted and there are no restrictions to re-enlistment or anything else... Do you speak up?

    Again with PT... You are doing your waist measurement. The guy is very obviously friends with another persone being tested. Said person being tested is quite obviously over max allowable waist measurement....but passes... Do you speak up?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Insert clever quote here...

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    Senior Member BOSS302's Avatar
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    Re: Integrity question

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaken1976 View Post
    or more than one...based on a few things that happened here recently...

    Member goes to PT test. Passes test no problem...not an excellent. Scores are put into AFFMS wrong and score comes out 2 points higher than was supposed to be. Does not mean difference between sat and excellent. Do you speak up? or let it go?

    Your last EPR is a referral. You discover that somehow the code has lifted and there are no restrictions to re-enlistment or anything else... Do you speak up?

    Again with PT... You are doing your waist measurement. The guy is very obviously friends with another persone being tested. Said person being tested is quite obviously over max allowable waist measurement....but passes... Do you speak up?
    None of this would matter if you would get back in the kitchen, woman.

    Years ago, I would have piped up with a response of, "Integrity First!".

    However, the Air Force at higher levels is intent on screwing over people. I've been jaded by seeing too many good people get dry-fucked by the Establishment.

    Thus now, I would say, "Look at for you and yours", i.e., look out for your people and yourself.

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    Re: Integrity question

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaken1976 View Post
    or more than one...based on a few things that happened here recently...

    Member goes to PT test. Passes test no problem...not an excellent. Scores are put into AFFMS wrong and score comes out 2 points higher than was supposed to be. Does not mean difference between sat and excellent. Do you speak up? or let it go?
    speak up

    Your last EPR is a referral. You discover that somehow the code has lifted and there are no restrictions to re-enlistment or anything else... Do you speak up?
    speak up

    Again with PT... You are doing your waist measurement. The guy is very obviously friends with another persone being tested. Said person being tested is quite obviously over max allowable waist measurement....but passes... Do you speak up?
    speak up


    These were easy.

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    Re: Integrity question

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaken1976 View Post
    Again with PT... You are doing your waist measurement. The guy is very obviously friends with another persone being tested. Said person being tested is quite obviously over max allowable waist measurement....but passes... Do you speak up?
    This one reminds me of a first sergeant in one unit that we all hated. Literally her first day on the job she said that she was disappointed in our uniforms. Since we are all just a bunch of office weenies (exact words) there is no reason we shouldnt have a perfect uniform. Also she came from COMM where they dig ditches and their uniforms looked better. (COMM never dug any ditches at that base).

    So anyways, that unit had a rule where everyone PT tested on the same day whether you were due or not. It made it easy to keep everyone current. So we go out as a unit and take the test then come back to the squadron for waist measurements. At the time we didn't have a PTL to measure her waist. She leaves and goes to her other squadron (dual shirt) and comes back with a signed form saying her waist was 31 inches. Just looking at her there is no way she was under 36. The next day I brought in a pair of jeans that were 32x34 I told one of the PTLs they should offer to let her try them on. If here waist is 31 inches she should easily fit. That didn't fly and I went back to my desk to be an office weenie in my dirtbag uniform.

    Integrity starts at the top. When the unit First Sergeant cheated on the PT test it pretty much told the rest of us to feel free to cheat also.

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    Senior Member Chief_KO's Avatar
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    Re: Integrity question

    Yes x 3.
    #1: No direct harm or fraud committed, however this could ID other errors in the unit PT program (are other records "fat fingered"?). When PT is audited this could come back and bite the unit with a vengence.
    #2: This is tough, especially if the member wants to reenlist. BUT, it will eventually be discovered and fixed and the member would have committed a fradulent enlistment.
    #3: Appears harm & fraud are committed. This will bring the whole unit's PT program under bad scrutiny. We are in the boat we are in today thanks to PTL's HABU (hook a brother up) on fudging scores, waist measurements. then TSgt Johnny shows up at NCOA and is 6 inches OVER max (even though he was 2 inches UNDER max 3 weeks prior).

    Not a pretty situation, but these are all pretty clear cut.
    "Never force a fart in Djibouti"..."Always marry your second wife first"..."If anyone says that you're not a team player, maybe they're on the wrong team"..."You can gold plate a turd and it's still a turd"

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    Re: Integrity question

    How about having the integrity to be out there exercising and eating a sensible healthy diet every single day?

    You'll feel good, look good, and be immune to the scenarios described in the OP.

    Sounds like those people traded their integrity for meatball sandwiches and couch potato time long before any of those issues came up.

    Now, you are all worthless and weak! Drop and give me 20!

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    Re: Integrity question

    Quote Originally Posted by SomeRandomGuy View Post
    This one reminds me of a first sergeant in one unit that we all hated. Literally her first day on the job she said that she was disappointed in our uniforms. Since we are all just a bunch of office weenies (exact words) there is no reason we shouldnt have a perfect uniform. Also she came from COMM where they dig ditches and their uniforms looked better. (COMM never dug any ditches at that base).

    So anyways, that unit had a rule where everyone PT tested on the same day whether you were due or not. It made it easy to keep everyone current. So we go out as a unit and take the test then come back to the squadron for waist measurements. At the time we didn't have a PTL to measure her waist. She leaves and goes to her other squadron (dual shirt) and comes back with a signed form saying her waist was 31 inches. Just looking at her there is no way she was under 36. The next day I brought in a pair of jeans that were 32x34 I told one of the PTLs they should offer to let her try them on. If here waist is 31 inches she should easily fit. That didn't fly and I went back to my desk to be an office weenie in my dirtbag uniform.

    Integrity starts at the top. When the unit First Sergeant cheated on the PT test it pretty much told the rest of us to feel free to cheat also.
    While I was no fan of the PT program, I once accidentally caught wind of that fact that one of our SSgts did not perform her run, but instead had the PTL (who was her A1C subordinate) put in a time that she knew she could run...and got a passing score.

    I promptly "spoke up" and recommended an Article 15 to the commander (after verifying the story). Which the SSgt did receive and soon became a SrA. The PTL was given a LOR/UIF and removed from PTL duties.

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    Re: Integrity question

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaken1976 View Post
    or more than one...based on a few things that happened here recently...

    Member goes to PT test. Passes test no problem...not an excellent. Scores are put into AFFMS wrong and score comes out 2 points higher than was supposed to be. Does not mean difference between sat and excellent. Do you speak up? or let it go?

    Your last EPR is a referral. You discover that somehow the code has lifted and there are no restrictions to re-enlistment or anything else... Do you speak up?

    Again with PT... You are doing your waist measurement. The guy is very obviously friends with another persone being tested. Said person being tested is quite obviously over max allowable waist measurement....but passes... Do you speak up?
    1. I'd speak up, especially in this instance where it doesn't do me any harm.
    2. Speak up.
    3. That person needs reported. We all should be held to the same standard, no matter who our friends are.

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    Senior Member Stalwart's Avatar
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    Re: Integrity question

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaken1976 View Post
    Member goes to PT test. Passes test no problem...not an excellent. Scores are put into AFFMS wrong and score comes out 2 points higher than was supposed to be. Does not mean difference between sat and excellent. Do you speak up? or let it go?
    Yes, it sounds like it was an honest mistake and does no harm in bringing it up ... so no harm in pointing out it is an incorrect score. Also, if the way the USAF tracks PT scores is similar to the USN, it should take about 60 seconds to correct.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shaken1976 View Post
    Your last EPR is a referral. You discover that somehow the code has lifted and there are no restrictions to re-enlistment or anything else... Do you speak up?
    I would. Could this be something down that road that you are held accountable for: knowing there was a problem with the EPR referral and NOT bringing it up? "SSgt, TSGT etc. you should have known better?" Not bringing it up may work in short term, but may bite you harder in the long term.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shaken1976 View Post
    Again with PT... You are doing your waist measurement. The guy is very obviously friends with another persone being tested. Said person being tested is quite obviously over max allowable waist measurement....but passes... Do you speak up?
    Yes. Standards are standards. Everyone who tries to meet them has it owed to them that people who do not meet standards are not allowed to slip by because of a friend, position etc.

    BT BT

    All that said, you may report or bring up everything and the chain of command may not act on it -- especially #1, since it is no harm no foul to the member (they passed the test anyway.) Then it becomes up to you how important the issue is to you; do you feel you have done your due diligence in reporting it even if the issue is not acted on? Is there a bigger issue than the incidents at hand (systemic failure of or in the system the system) and how much of a thorn in someone's side do you want to be? Being the person who bucks the system can be a really good thing if you are willing to weather the storm and if you do it for a reason and not just to be an ass to people; but you have to also know that you may catch indirect blowback from being 'that guy/gal' ... or if you are immune from it the people who work for you could end up paying the price instead of you.

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    Senior Member BENDER56's Avatar
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    Re: Integrity question

    In the mid '90s I was the NCOIC of the Medical Aid Station at RAF Molesworth. One day I got a call from SrA X in our orderly room and the conversation went like this:

    Me: Good Morning. Molesworth medical aid station. TSgt Bender speaking. How may I help you?

    SrA X: Good morning Sar'nt Bender. This is SrA X and we need to accomplish our annual weigh-in for all assigned personnel before close of business today.

    Me: Okay. I'm not busy right now. You want me to come over? (The orderly room was about a three-minute walk away.)

    SrA X: Nah, that's not necessary. Can you tell me how tall you are?

    Me: Uhhh ... five-foot-seven?

    SrA X: Okay. And how much do you weigh?

    Me: Ummm ... about 165?

    SrA X: Great. Thanks Sar'nt Bender. <Click>

    I hung up the phone and just kinda' shook my head for a couple of seconds before going back to whatever I was doing. That was my annual weigh-in.
    "Every society honors its live conformists and its dead troublemakers."
    ~Mignon McLaughlin

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