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Thread: Is this fraternization?

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    Is this fraternization?

    Short and long of it. We are going to have a command lunch off base. The LCPO is paying for all new members and those that are transferring. As far as I am concerned this is discrimination and not fair. If the chief were to cover the bill he/she would need to pay for EVERYONE attending. Is this grounds to report to the CMEO as the Chief is saying there is nothing wrong with this?

    Thanks in advance.

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    Senior Member Stalwart's Avatar
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    Re: Is this fraternization?

    Quote Originally Posted by j_constant View Post
    Short and long of it. We are going to have a command lunch off base. The LCPO is paying for all new members and those that are transferring. As far as I am concerned this is discrimination and not fair. If the chief were to cover the bill he/she would need to pay for EVERYONE attending. Is this grounds to report to the CMEO as the Chief is saying there is nothing wrong with this?

    Thanks in advance.
    Is it an event to which your whole department or division is invited? If so, probably not.

    Is the LCPO buying all the new and transferring members meals, or just some of them. If he is picking and choosing amongst that group (new personnel and transfers) that is not right, if is picking up the tab for the whole group, that is not fraternization. If the whole division is invited, and those being recognized (is this a hail and farewell?) are having their meals bought and you are not, you have the option to attend and not eat or not attend.

    Before you talk to the CMEO, have you talked to your LCPO directly or no? Have you talked to the DEPT LCPO? Try to let the khaki's solve it before using the nuclear option -- but in my opinion this doesn't sound like fraternization.

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    Senior Member AJBIGJ's Avatar
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    Re: Is this fraternization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stalwart View Post
    Is it an event to which your whole department or division is invited? If so probably not.

    Is the LCPO buying all the new and transferring members meals, or just some of them. If he is picking and choosing amongst that group (new personnel and transfers) that is not right, if is picking up the tab for the whole group, that is not fraternization. If the whole division is invited, and those being recognized (is this a hail and farewell?) are having their meals bought and you are not, you have the option to attend and not eat or not attend.

    Before you talk to the CMEO, have you talked to your LCPO directly or no? Have you talked to the DEPT LCPO? Try to let the khaki's solve it before using the nuclear option -- but in my opinion this doesn't sound like fraternization.
    I'm under the same impression, it is often the tradition of Hail and Farewells for the senior individual to pay for those being celebrated, usually it is up to the individual whether they do this or not. It basically is a way of having the senior individual show the appreciation of all the hard work that they put in. The big question from a CMEO standpoint is whether he applies it at every Hail and Farewell or just that one specifically. Either way, going as Stalwart put it with the "Nuclear Option" would probably have one result if anything at all, having the senior individual just make everyone pay for their meals, and they would just have to find a more politically correct way of expressing appreciation for all of the hard work. Plus it would probably put you at odds with not only the LCPO but the entire division. In other words, I would strongly recommend against it to avoid making oneself an outcast.
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    Re: Is this fraternization?

    What's an LCPO?

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    Re: Is this fraternization?

    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    What's an LCPO?
    Leading Chief Petty Officer, kind of like what I think you guys call the "Shirt" if I'm not mistaken.
    "The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." ~ Thomas Jefferson

    It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood.
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    Re: Is this fraternization?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJBIGJ View Post
    Leading Chief Petty Officer, kind of like what I think you guys call the "Shirt" if I'm not mistaken.
    Ahhh...ok...so I'm not sure if it's the same as in the Air Force, but it would definitely not be fraternization, as that refers to officer/enlisted relationships.

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    Senior Member Stalwart's Avatar
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    Re: Is this fraternization?

    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    Ahhh...ok...so I'm not sure if it's the same as in the Air Force, but it would definitely not be fraternization, as that refers to officer/enlisted relationships.
    LCPO is a Navy term. In the Navy you can have 'unduly familiar' relationships (fraternization) between officers (senior and junior) as well as between enlisted (senior and junior.)

    I knew an AF couple (one officer one enlisted) that were married (neither was prior enlisted.) It was deemed okay when they dated / got engaged since the officer was not in the enlisted's chain of command -- sounded weird.

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    Re: Is this fraternization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stalwart View Post
    LCPO is a Navy term. In the Navy you can have 'unduly familiar' relationships (fraternization) between officers (senior and junior) as well as between enlisted (senior and junior.)

    I knew an AF couple (one officer one enlisted) that were married (neither was prior enlisted.) It was deemed okay when they dated / got engaged since the officer was not in the enlisted's chain of command -- sounded weird.
    Yeah, in the AF if it only includes enlisted than it is called an "unprofessional relationship", not fraternization. Same thing, different terms. I guess that way it's easier when it comes to prosecution and sentencing to avoid confusion between the responsibility that an Officer holds and the responsibility that an enlisted holds.

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    Re: Is this fraternization?

    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    Ahhh...ok...so I'm not sure if it's the same as in the Air Force, but it would definitely not be fraternization, as that refers to officer/enlisted relationships.
    It's not. We really don't have an equivalent to a First Sergeant in the Navy; although the closest thing would be a Command Senior Chief, which has only been around for the past six or seven years. What they have in common as that they're the senior enlisted person at commands that rate their own UIC, and they hold a general leadership rating/AFSC/MOS outside of their original. The big difference is that a First Sergeant in the other services hold a specific position in particular echelon that reports a higher echelon with a Command Chief Master Sergeant/Sergeant Major (eg., company to battalion in the Army). Command Senior Chiefs are merely for commands in the Navy that are too small to rate a Master Chief.

    A true equivalent to a First Sergeant in the Navy would be a department level LCPO with a general leadership rating that moves from department to department outside of his original rating, before becoming a Command Master Chief. But we don't have that in the Navy.
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    Re: Is this fraternization?

    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    Ahhh...ok...so I'm not sure if it's the same as in the Air Force, but it would definitely not be fraternization, as that refers to officer/enlisted relationships.
    Yeah, like Stalwart said it's a bit more complex on the Navy side, since most of us all live in one big steel container for months on end with no "unduly familiar" relationships other than a specially designated sock (at least by the rulebook). It's entirely possible for an E-4/E-5 to have a questionable relationship if one is the subordinate to the other and the particulars of their relations are "questionable" from the perspective of another. It's all kind of a "perception-based' philosophy in the Navy, and yes it doesn't always make sense either!
    "The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." ~ Thomas Jefferson

    It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood.
    James Madison

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