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Thread: Official: Mahan Sailor Shot Intruder

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    Re: Official: Mahan Sailor Shot Intruder

    Face it, the Navy has become distracted by social issues to a point they've almost ceased to operate as a bona fide military organization. Honestly, how many times have we "qualified" someone on small arms, knowing full well that there was no way they could ever use them if the need arose? Or did so just to balance a watchbill or meet some PQS reporting requirement, all the while hoping that nothing would happen? Too many people don't take this seriously until something tragic happens. Now people are talking about mandatory hand to hand combat training? I'm not disagreeing with you, but do you think there is a snowballs chance in hell that the Navy will adopt this? Even if they did, how effective do you think it would be? The Navy can't get people to pass the PRT!

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    Re: Official: Mahan Sailor Shot Intruder

    I've watched Army and Marines do command PT. Command PT in the Navy will keep you in shape, but PT in the Army and Marine Corps is actually focued on what they're tested on. This would be a pretty easy fix on the Navy's part, but I don't see it happening.

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    Re: Official: Mahan Sailor Shot Intruder

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    I've watched Army and Marines do command PT. Command PT in the Navy will keep you in shape, but PT in the Army and Marine Corps is actually focued on what they're tested on. This would be a pretty easy fix on the Navy's part, but I don't see it happening.
    I am curious to see if the Navy is going to approach these shootings as business as usual. We will know soon enough if another shooting occurs similar to these two. I don't understand why the Navy's Force Protection isn't being critically evaluated since these fatalities started occurring.

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    Re: Official: Mahan Sailor Shot Intruder

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    2. I'm not even sure if Sailors really feel that they're even ALLOWED to engage in hand to hand combat, even if they felt that they could successfully do it. It's never covered in ATFP training, nor are they ever told when to do it, or that they should even do it all.
    True.. I do remember that question getting asked during one 'indoc' session on ship, whether the sentries could engage in hand to hand to 'restrain someone' if needed.. the instructor told us "Just call security!"

    Quote Originally Posted by BURAWSKI View Post
    I am curious to see if the Navy is going to approach these shootings as business as usual. We will know soon enough if another shooting occurs similar to these two. I don't understand why the Navy's Force Protection isn't being critically evaluated since these fatalities started occurring.
    How often have we heard that the govt is going to "critically look at something" after an incident, but nothing happens?

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    Re: Official: Mahan Sailor Shot Intruder

    Quote Originally Posted by garhkal View Post
    True.. I do remember that question getting asked during one 'indoc' session on ship, whether the sentries could engage in hand to hand to 'restrain someone' if needed.. the instructor told us "Just call security!"



    How often have we heard that the govt is going to "critically look at something" after an incident, but nothing happens?
    When seconds count, help is minutes away.

    With that said, I was on the Norfolk Navy Yard a few times during my Langley days. I've driven by where the carriers are docked, it's not a controlled area at X number of yards before you get to the ship?
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    Re: Official: Mahan Sailor Shot Intruder

    Quote Originally Posted by CaliMC View Post
    Face it, the Navy has become distracted by social issues to a point they've almost ceased to operate as a bona fide military organization. Honestly, how many times have we "qualified" someone on small arms, knowing full well that there was no way they could ever use them if the need arose? Or did so just to balance a watchbill or meet some PQS reporting requirement, all the while hoping that nothing would happen? Too many people don't take this seriously until something tragic happens. Now people are talking about mandatory hand to hand combat training? I'm not disagreeing with you, but do you think there is a snowballs chance in hell that the Navy will adopt this? Even if they did, how effective do you think it would be? The Navy can't get people to pass the PRT!
    I see what you are saying, but as a DIV & DH on a DDG, I had no real issues with my time as a result of 'social issues'; my usual headaches centered around meeting training requirements from the SFTM and from ATG (Afloat Training Group -- which IMO should be called AEG - Afloat Evaluation Group since they never actually conduct 'training' but just review checklists and certify that we have accomplished the checklist.) The biggest headache is when a program manager for [pick a program] fails to adequately manage their program and suddenly a known, projectable requirement is a last minute scramble to get done because they have a deliverable due in 72 hours.

    Lax qualification standards, I know it is done ... I personally have never done it. I was a Special Evaluator & Fleet NATOPS Evaluator on the EP-3E for three years and had a reputation as a very stringent qualifier (I once failed a CWO who did not pre-op his parachute as required -- many said it was BS since "no one ever checks their parachute" even though the preflight check list is very black and white.) When I first arrived at my DDG there was some adjustment by the Sailors to the way my expectations differed from my predecessor; but about a year later when we performed our jobs with a very high degree of efficiency it was easy to see the confidence they had in their abilities and the pride they took in their jobs. I am and have always been comfortable that I am following the standard as dictated by instructions; but yes, I know some people do not do that for the sake of a balanced or eased watchbill -- an culturally that is something we have to alter. Where we can alter that depends; I am a LCDR so my sphere of influence is not the same as that of a CAPT etc., however a GM1 running a M9 course of fire can stand firm on the qualification requirements when he or she is running the range.

    As far as hand to hand combat, infighting defensive, or combatives training in the Navy, I do think it is something that we should look at -- based on the expectation we have of everyone being a sentry on a ship etc. I am bothered that a trained sentry had a weapon taken from them, but I don't know the specifics of the situation enough to know if the shooter rushed down the pier, across the brow and to the sentry (issue with threat assessment and engagement) or was the shooter granted permission to come aboard, stood next to the sentry and then attacked (at this point some sort of defensive training would have been beneficial.) How effective do I think implementing such a program would be? As effective as the leaders want to make it; personally I am an eternal optimist with nearly 24 years in uniform adding a dash of realism so I probably won't be able to 'fix' anything Navy-wide. A lot of people will get a task and throw their hands in the air and say it can’t be done. However as long as I wear a uniform it is my job to execute direction as best as I can given the resources I have or can get.

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    Re: Official: Mahan Sailor Shot Intruder

    Quote Originally Posted by garhkal View Post
    True, but the POOW definitely needs to get his pecker smacked hard for allowing someone to get ahold of his gun let alone take it from him!

    IMO Yes. When i was stationed in Bahrain, the marine corps in charge of base security and the Aux sec force, tried their damnedest to get us Navy/AF bubs that joined ASF to go through MCMAP. Some of the higher ups were for it, others not so much..
    In this case a her, and it appears it was her life that was saved by a very heroic MA2 Mayo, we don't see many MOH's in the Navy, but this is a fair candidate IMO.
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    Re: Official: Mahan Sailor Shot Intruder

    I would encourage people to visit the Naval Station Norfolk facebook page, it provides a fair amount of updates that would be good to have before speculating too much.
    "The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." ~ Thomas Jefferson

    It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood.
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    Re: Official: Mahan Sailor Shot Intruder

    Quote Originally Posted by Stalwart View Post
    I see what you are saying, but as a DIV & DH on a DDG, I had no real issues with my time as a result of 'social issues'; my usual headaches centered around meeting training requirements from the SFTM and from ATG (Afloat Training Group -- which IMO should be called AEG - Afloat Evaluation Group since they never actually conduct 'training' but just review checklists and certify that we have accomplished the checklist.) The biggest headache is when a program manager for [pick a program] fails to adequately manage their program and suddenly a known, projectable requirement is a last minute scramble to get done because they have a deliverable due in 72 hours.

    Lax qualification standards, I know it is done ... I personally have never done it. I was a Special Evaluator & Fleet NATOPS Evaluator on the EP-3E for three years and had a reputation as a very stringent qualifier (I once failed a CWO who did not pre-op his parachute as required -- many said it was BS since "no one ever checks their parachute" even though the preflight check list is very black and white.) When I first arrived at my DDG there was some adjustment by the Sailors to the way my expectations differed from my predecessor; but about a year later when we performed our jobs with a very high degree of efficiency it was easy to see the confidence they had in their abilities and the pride they took in their jobs. I am and have always been comfortable that I am following the standard as dictated by instructions; but yes, I know some people do not do that for the sake of a balanced or eased watchbill -- an culturally that is something we have to alter. Where we can alter that depends; I am a LCDR so my sphere of influence is not the same as that of a CAPT etc., however a GM1 running a M9 course of fire can stand firm on the qualification requirements when he or she is running the range.

    As far as hand to hand combat, infighting defensive, or combatives training in the Navy, I do think it is something that we should look at -- based on the expectation we have of everyone being a sentry on a ship etc. I am bothered that a trained sentry had a weapon taken from them, but I don't know the specifics of the situation enough to know if the shooter rushed down the pier, across the brow and to the sentry (issue with threat assessment and engagement) or was the shooter granted permission to come aboard, stood next to the sentry and then attacked (at this point some sort of defensive training would have been beneficial.) How effective do I think implementing such a program would be? As effective as the leaders want to make it; personally I am an eternal optimist with nearly 24 years in uniform adding a dash of realism so I probably won't be able to 'fix' anything Navy-wide. A lot of people will get a task and throw their hands in the air and say it can’t be done. However as long as I wear a uniform it is my job to execute direction as best as I can given the resources I have or can get.

    Completing the POOW PQS and going to the range twice a year to shoot hardly qualifies a sailor to be standing a watch that puts him in a position to make deadly force decisions to protect the ship. Espcecially if this sailor is non-security oriented rating such as a YN, LS, or PS (some of the rates that typically stand POOW). You can bet that at 23:20 on a Monday night, the only thing that this POOW was thinking about was if his relief was going to show up on time. Taps has already gone down, the CDO has gone to bed, and the ship is quiet. The watch team was most likely just standing around BS'ing waiting for their watch to be over and not thinking for one second that someone would charge the brow. We have ALL been there before.
    I'm not saying that this is wrong. The ship, ISIC, and the Navy make conscious decisions on FP while in home port based on the THREATCON. And there probably is no way that what this truck driver did could ever be predicted in any type of FP scenerio. However, I don't think the commenters on this thread should blaming the tactically unqualifed POOW who just happened to be selected to fill a spot on the watchbill that night....

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    Re: Official: Mahan Sailor Shot Intruder

    Quote Originally Posted by AJBIGJ View Post
    In this case a her, and it appears it was her life that was saved by a very heroic MA2 Mayo, we don't see many MOH's in the Navy, but this is a fair candidate IMO.
    A MOH for the Mahan incident?

    Please tell me you are talking about something else.

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