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Thread: Official: Mahan Sailor Shot Intruder

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    Senior Member Stalwart's Avatar
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    Re: Official: Mahan Sailor Shot Intruder

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    I will say that SRF-B is pretty valuable, as it provides Sailors with training that wasn't provided years earlier. Before, all you had to do in order to stand a watch was a PQS and a weapons qual. So SRF-B is better than nothing. However, "better than nothing" just isn't good enough; and it looks like the Navy has just learned that lesson.
    SRF-B is okay (IMO ... but I had a lot of QRF training before I came in the Navy), but then again not every topside watchstander (as of 2012) had to attend SRF-B, and for the watchbill we only had to have a specific number of SRF-A personnel onboard; this concept is poor when inport in Norfolk or San Diego -- totally unsat when deploying the ship overseas. To me, just from a perspective of the world as it is today -- if you are in uniform, you should probably have some level of training in how to protect yourself from an attacker (armed or unarmed.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    It's my understanding that the Marine Corps and Army routinely practice their martial arts programs frequently, just like PT. So not only are they trained in it, but their proficiency is always maintained. Why the Navy can't adopt something similar, I don't know.
    It is actually used AS PT a lot of the time. The Marines Corps had a shift in an old mentality that PT had to be pushups, situps and jogging to allowing PT to be anything that exercises your muscles and your 'fighting spirit.' When we did Close Combat training (precursor to MCMAP) and MCMAP, I was definitely exercising my muscles. MCMAP introduced discussion / training on the continuum of force (what level of force is appropriate for certain situations etc.) How do we incorporate that mentality into the Navy (the 'warrior ethos' if you will), a fundamental change that just because you aren't in the Army or Marines, you need to be prepared to fight, not just push a button or pull a trigger -- but that you may have to up close and personal fight one day. We used to have 'smokers' (boxing matches) on deployoment, at the USNA midshipmen are required to do some boxing training. Today we are in many cases struggling to get people proficient with pushups, situps and 6 laps around a track. I have my ideas on how to do it, part of it is expectation management from the senior levels of the Navy & part of it is effective time management and leadership at the unit and small unit leader level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe Anecdote View Post
    The Mahan incident sounds like a strange one, a truck driver making a delivery goes nuts and takes a sentry's weapon. The motivation behind that could be almost anything.
    It does sound wierd and am curious if this was somehow a case of 'grab-ass' gone wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by BURAWSKI View Post
    It just seems that in the past these types of threats were not really expected to take place inside a base but now it appears the world has changed to the point that even our stateside bases are becoming active targets for terrorists (either domestic or international).
    That is part of the problem; I think we (most Americans in general ... not just USN or DoD) do a poor job of 'expecting the unexpected' or training people to think outside of a preplanned scenario ... 'off the script' if you will.

    If I was to role-play as an insurgent or partisan, I would not attack a 'hard target' -- fighting positions or guard towers; I would find where people felt relatively safe and had their guard down(chow halls, exchanges, internet cafes etc.) , and strike there -- just my way of thinking based on what I have observed.

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    Senior Member Absinthe Anecdote's Avatar
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    Re: Official: Mahan Sailor Shot Intruder

    Quote Originally Posted by efmbman View Post
    to take it a step further... why isn't there a DoD-wide standard for this? Should each service have a different flavor of the same basic principle?
    Exactly!

    How hard would it be to mandate a weekly Krav Maga session for all personnel? You could mandate every Wednesday afternoon be the dedicated Krav Maga training time.

    I'm sure you'd have plenty of contractors lining up to bid on providing the initial training to certify a cadre of Krav Maga instructors. It couldn't cost that much, could it?

    Plus, you could really run wild with the Krav Maga training and integrate it with sexual assault prevention. You could claim the female personnel are better trained to fight off potential sexual predators since they now know Krav Maga. However, you would have to distract people from the fact that the sexual predators in the ranks also know Krav Maga.

    I think looking to the Marine Corps for providing the lead on this training would be a mistake. The Air Force and the Navy would be in much better hands looking to defense contractors to provide a training program.

    Just think how awesome it would be to report to a weekly Krav Maga class taught by a Blackwater employee.

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    Re: Official: Mahan Sailor Shot Intruder

    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe Anecdote View Post
    Exactly!

    How hard would it be to mandate a weekly Krav Maga session for all personnel? You could mandate every Wednesday afternoon be the dedicated Krav Maga training time.

    I'm sure you'd have plenty of contractors lining up to bid on providing the initial training to certify a cadre of Krav Maga instructors. It couldn't cost that much, could it?

    Plus, you could really run wild with the Krav Maga training and integrate it with sexual assault prevention. You could claim the female personnel are better trained to fight off potential sexual predators since they now know Krav Maga. However, you would have to distract people from the fact that the sexual predators in the ranks also know Krav Maga.

    I think looking to the Marine Corps for providing the lead on this training would be a mistake. The Air Force and the Navy would be in much better hands looking to defense contractors to provide a training program.

    Just think how awesome it would be to report to a weekly Krav Maga class taught by a Blackwater employee.
    This idea might have some legs to it. I heard there could be as many as 20,000 people leaving the Air Force this year. We can't let all that talent just walk out the door. We need to do the same for them that we do for people who retire at 20 years. We need to bring them back as contractors for twice as much as they used to cost. Who better to teach about inside threats than people who used to be on the inside? Now that they have made it out of the AF they know all about being in and how to escape. They would be perfect to teach this class.

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    Re: Official: Mahan Sailor Shot Intruder

    The male civilian gained access to Naval Station Norfolk with proper credentials while driving a tractor-trailer onto base Monday
    Is that over the road driver with a bill of lading stating he's making a delivery, or a civil service/contractor driver in a truck that says US NAVY? We aren't getting a great deal of info on this one.
    "Wrong" is one of those concepts that requires witnesses. Catbert, Evil Director of Human Resources

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    Re: Official: Mahan Sailor Shot Intruder

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo432 View Post
    The male civilian gained access to Naval Station Norfolk with proper credentials while driving a tractor-trailer onto base Monday
    Is that over the road driver with a bill of lading stating he's making a delivery, or a civil service/contractor driver in a truck that says US NAVY? We aren't getting a great deal of info on this one.
    Probably the first part (is how I translate it). Deliveries from food companies etc. come on NOB all the time.

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    Re: Official: Mahan Sailor Shot Intruder

    Quote Originally Posted by efmbman View Post
    to take it a step further... why isn't there a DoD-wide standard for this? Should each service have a different flavor of the same basic principle?
    To some extent, I do think there should be (my opinion). Each individual service also has to consider what is best/needed for its personnel and if the individual service needs a higher standard than the DoD minimum then so be it. I think everyone should on some level be trained in how to physically defend themselves or engage a potential threat. Not every Airman needs the same level of proficiency as a Soldier or Marine. But as other threads have pointed out, people deploy now to less and less 'traditional' roles than before and Airman Jones deployed to AUAB or BAH does need to be able to contribute (not be the focus of effort or the tip of the spear ... but contribute) if/when the fight comes to him or her.

    The Navy has a pretty unique scenario where the command (ship) deploys and everyone goes, and takes the 'building' with them, while deployed members of the command provide all their own power, heating/cooling, security, communications, support services etc. Host nation will usually provide some kind of security on the pier, but the safety of the ship is the responsibility of the CO and has to man the security watches from the people that are organically assigned.

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    Re: Official: Mahan Sailor Shot Intruder

    Quote Originally Posted by Stalwart View Post
    To some extent, I do think there should be (my opinion). Each individual service also has to consider what is best/needed for its personnel and if the individual service needs a higher standard than the DoD minimum then so be it. I think everyone should on some level be trained in how to physically defend themselves or engage a potential threat. Not every Airman needs the same level of proficiency as a Soldier or Marine. But as other threads have pointed out, people deploy now to less and less 'traditional' roles than before and Airman Jones deployed to AUAB or BAH does need to be able to contribute (not be the focus of effort or the tip of the spear ... but contribute) if/when the fight comes to him or her.

    The Navy has a pretty unique scenario where the command (ship) deploys and everyone goes, and takes the 'building' with them, while deployed members of the command provide all their own power, heating/cooling, security, communications, support services etc. Host nation will usually provide some kind of security on the pier, but the safety of the ship is the responsibility of the CO and has to man the security watches from the people that are organically assigned.
    Adding to this, where a ship is in its operational schedule bears heavily on where and in what areas the efforts of the crew are specifically focused on. Whereas in most of the services it seems to hold true that your "Day Job" is your "Everyday Job" most of the time, Navy on sea duty can find themselves doing all sorts of things at a given moment. Some rates obviously being extremely heavily utilized while underway while extremely bored in port. Some the reverse, and some able to establish more of a steady strain. If a ship is in the yards, a lot of the time the focus will be geared towards maintenance and repairs because the environment in the yards can be challenging and even hazardous for much of the training. It's the whole ramp up at the last minute for the next inspection/assessment/evolution that makes us not exactly the best service in terms of maintaining sustained readiness. I certainly can't say the other services don't have MOSs that experience similar things, but I am extremely certain that it is most pervasive in the Navy culture.
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    Re: Official: Mahan Sailor Shot Intruder

    Quote Originally Posted by AJBIGJ View Post
    I have to say, considering everything, the outcome was much better than it could have been. At least the roving sentry was on their game and the assailant was stopped beyond a single death.
    True, but the POOW definitely needs to get his pecker smacked hard for allowing someone to get ahold of his gun let alone take it from him!

    Quote Originally Posted by efmbman View Post
    to take it a step further... why isn't there a DoD-wide standard for this? Should each service have a different flavor of the same basic principle?
    IMO Yes. When i was stationed in Bahrain, the marine corps in charge of base security and the Aux sec force, tried their damnedest to get us Navy/AF bubs that joined ASF to go through MCMAP. Some of the higher ups were for it, others not so much..

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    Re: Official: Mahan Sailor Shot Intruder

    Quote Originally Posted by garhkal View Post
    True, but the POOW definitely needs to get his pecker smacked hard for allowing someone to get a hold of his gun let alone take it from him!
    I agree with you to a point. My concern is that we really don't teach ship's force (via PSQ, SRF-B or A ... maybe we do informally) how to engage or defend someone who is up close and personal. If the shooter got to the quarterdeck, then entered into a grappling scenario with the sentry (was it the POOW? I don't know.) he took the weapon from there is not much the POOW could reasonably do since they are not trained how to grapple with someone. If the person becomes a threat while more than about six feet away, you can draw a weapon and fire; inside of six feet most attackers will be on top of someone before a trained shooter (more or less a pseudo-qualified E-2 or E-3 who just qual’d as a rover last week) could unholster a pistol or bring a rifle up from the ready or other carry position.

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    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Official: Mahan Sailor Shot Intruder

    Quote Originally Posted by garhkal View Post
    True, but the POOW definitely needs to get his pecker smacked hard for allowing someone to get ahold of his gun let alone take it from him!
    You can only be held responsible for what you're trained on.

    I know that sounds naive as hell, but...

    I think this shows that there is a need for people in all service - not just the Army and Marine Corps - to be trained in hand to hand combat. Disarming someone isn't at all difficult, especially when the armed person in question doesn't even know that you're a threat until it's too late.

    The average American male SHOULD have some ability to fight. Those that don't... I really wonder how the hell they made it to adulthood without having to fight somebody... that's just a reality that's unimaginable to me.

    However... two things:

    1. I don't think that whatever fighting ability that the average untrained American male has is really sufficient for a life and death scenario, such as this shooting incident. All military personnel should be trained to have similar skills as police officers, or other people who are subject to hostile situations.

    2. I'm not even sure if Sailors really feel that they're even ALLOWED to engage in hand to hand combat, even if they felt that they could successfully do it. It's never covered in ATFP training, nor are they ever told when to do it, or that they should even do it all.
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