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    The Ukraine situation

    So what's everyone take on what is happening in the Ukraine? Are the 'peaceful protestors' doing right? or do you call it what it is, a violent riot?

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    Re: The Ukrane situation

    Option "C". It's violent and it's also "doing right."

    Putin wants to bring Ukraine into his proposed Eurasian Union. He essentially bribed Ukraine's leader, Yanukovych, not to join the European Union, which he had said he was going to do.

    People in the eastern part of Ukraine identify as ethnic Russians, speak Russian and generally agree with Ukraine and Russia becoming cozier. They're in the minority.

    People in the west of Ukraine speak Ukrainian and identify as ethnic Ukrainians. They're in the majority. They wanted the deal with the European Union and are pissed that Putin and Yanukovych torpedoed it. Yanukovych, by the way, threw out the old Ukrainian constitution after he came to power and crafted a new constitution that basically legitimizes what in essence is a near-dictatorship.

    So I can understand the actions of the protestors who feel they have no other recourse to save their vision of what Ukraine is and should be -- and what it should not be.

    Don't forget, the USA was born out of violent protest, so from our point of view it's kind of hypocritical to denounce violent protest as being something wrong.

    Hey, maybe if Ukraine turns into another Syria, it'll reignite the Cold War and we'll see Reagan-era defense spending again. More money! More manning! Bigger, better, faster, more lethal, and more expensive weapons!!!!! Won't that be great?!
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    Re: The Ukrane situation

    Quote Originally Posted by BENDER56 View Post
    Option "C". It's violent and it's also "doing right."

    Putin wants to bring Ukraine into his proposed Eurasian Union. He essentially bribed Ukraine's leader, Yanukovych, not to join the European Union, which he had said he was going to do.

    People in the eastern part of Ukraine identify as ethnic Russians, speak Russian and generally agree with Ukraine and Russia becoming cozier. They're in the minority.

    People in the west of Ukraine speak Ukrainian and identify as ethnic Ukrainians. They're in the majority. They wanted the deal with the European Union and are pissed that Putin and Yanukovych torpedoed it. Yanukovych, by the way, threw out the old Ukrainian constitution after he came to power and crafted a new constitution that basically legitimizes what in essence is a near-dictatorship.

    So I can understand the actions of the protestors who feel they have no other recourse to save their vision of what Ukraine is and should be -- and what it should not be.

    Don't forget, the USA was born out of violent protest, so from our point of view it's kind of hypocritical to denounce violent protest as being something wrong.

    Hey, maybe if Ukraine turns into another Syria, it'll reignite the Cold War and we'll see Reagan-era defense spending again. More money! More manning! Bigger, better, faster, more lethal, and more expensive weapons!!!!! Won't that be great?!
    You make some good points, Bender. Another thing to keep in mind is that these people have only known freedom for 1 generation. It seems they're not so willing to give it up, and are willing to give their lives to keep it.
    "Wrong" is one of those concepts that requires witnesses. Catbert, Evil Director of Human Resources

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    Re: The Ukrane situation

    Quote Originally Posted by BENDER56 View Post
    Don't forget, the USA was born out of violent protest, so from our point of view it's kind of hypocritical to denounce violent protest as being something wrong.

    While it may seem hypocritical, what gets me is how most all the news channels seem to only go on about the depredations of the govt forces/police, in how many 'protestors' get hurt/killed, but not so much on the rioters and how many police/troops are injured/killed in their molotov cocktail burning..
    I also can't understand how they can STILL call it a protest. Call it what it is, a RIOT.

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    Re: The Ukrane situation

    Quote Originally Posted by garhkal View Post
    While it may seem hypocritical, what gets me is how most all the news channels seem to only go on about the depredations of the govt forces/police, in how many 'protestors' get hurt/killed, but not so much on the rioters and how many police/troops are injured/killed in their molotov cocktail burning..
    I also can't understand how they can STILL call it a protest. Call it what it is, a RIOT.
    Okay. It's a riot. But it still could seem justified from the point of view of the protestors.

    Look, if in the future some US president concocts some secret deal to allow China to take over the US in return for his own personal gain, do you think the 'Murcan people will stand for that? You don't think, if it comes down to it, we won't riot and/or engage in outright civil warfare to take back our country? Would you say it's wrong to do that and we should simply welcome our new Chinese overlords?

    Well, that's pretty much what's happening in Ukraine. One man's lawless riot is another man's just cause.
    "Every society honors its live conformists and its dead troublemakers."
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    Re: The Ukrane situation

    Quote Originally Posted by BENDER56 View Post
    Okay. It's a riot. But it still could seem justified from the point of view of the protestors.
    Look, if in the future some US president concocts some secret deal to allow China to take over the US in return for his own personal gain, do you think the 'Murcan people will stand for that? You don't think, if it comes down to it, we won't riot and/or engage in outright civil warfare to take back our country? Would you say it's wrong to do that and we should simply welcome our new Chinese overlords?
    Well, that's pretty much what's happening in Ukraine. One man's lawless riot is another man's just cause.
    Honestly, I do believe that a large minority will be happy that China took over America and made it a "Socialist Utopia" and ended the "income inequality". The reason I say this is because almost everywhere you turn now there is a story about how bad the USA is because of income inequality. But that is my take on it.

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    Re: The Ukrane situation

    Quote Originally Posted by CYBERFX1024 View Post
    Honestly, I do believe that a large minority will be happy that China took over America and made it a "Socialist Utopia" and ended the "income inequality". The reason I say this is because almost everywhere you turn now there is a story about how bad the USA is because of income inequality. But that is my take on it.
    I'd doubt they would like it as much if china also implemented all their other policies (such as one child only) as well.

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    Re: The Ukrane situation

    Quote Originally Posted by CYBERFX1024 View Post
    Honestly, I do believe that a large minority will be happy that China took over America and made it a "Socialist Utopia" and ended the "income inequality". The reason I say this is because almost everywhere you turn now there is a story about how bad the USA is because of income inequality. But that is my take on it.
    For a person to have that view of China, they'd have to have been living in a cave under Kentucky for the past 25 years, or just flat out refusing to read any news stories about China.

    China is far from a socialist utopia and has a ultra rich upper class, a burgeoning middle class, and a large lower class that is increasingly being left behind.

    China is becoming more like the US with the passage of every year; they put their own spin on things, but they are far less socialist than they used to be.

    Income inequality is unavoidable. The people who shout about that are usually using it a a ploy to obtain political power. The battle to control the hearts and minds of the poor is centuries old.

    Although there are some people who are sincere in there calls to help the poor, it is wise to be suspicious of any movement that that touts that message.

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    Re: The Ukrane situation

    Quote Originally Posted by CYBERFX1024 View Post
    Honestly, I do believe that a large minority will be happy that China took over America and made it a "Socialist Utopia" and ended the "income inequality". The reason I say this is because almost everywhere you turn now there is a story about how bad the USA is because of income inequality. But that is my take on it.
    Income inequality is worse in China, and sadly people think the opposite is true.
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    Re: The Ukrane situation

    Quote Originally Posted by BENDER56 View Post
    Option "C". It's violent and it's also "doing right."

    Putin wants to bring Ukraine into his proposed Eurasian Union. He essentially bribed Ukraine's leader, Yanukovych, not to join the European Union, which he had said he was going to do.

    People in the eastern part of Ukraine identify as ethnic Russians, speak Russian and generally agree with Ukraine and Russia becoming cozier. They're in the minority.

    People in the west of Ukraine speak Ukrainian and identify as ethnic Ukrainians. They're in the majority. They wanted the deal with the European Union and are pissed that Putin and Yanukovych torpedoed it. Yanukovych, by the way, threw out the old Ukrainian constitution after he came to power and crafted a new constitution that basically legitimizes what in essence is a near-dictatorship.

    So I can understand the actions of the protestors who feel they have no other recourse to save their vision of what Ukraine is and should be -- and what it should not be.

    Don't forget, the USA was born out of violent protest, so from our point of view it's kind of hypocritical to denounce violent protest as being something wrong.

    Hey, maybe if Ukraine turns into another Syria, it'll reignite the Cold War and we'll see Reagan-era defense spending again. More money! More manning! Bigger, better, faster, more lethal, and more expensive weapons!!!!! Won't that be great?!
    We could really use another Cold War. It was definitely the most peaceful time of my existence.

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