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Thread: cutting headquarters staff

  1. #21
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    Re: cutting headquarters staff

    Quote Originally Posted by efmbman View Post
    I've heard this many times and I have heard that troops are cheaper. I have seen detailed articles which support both claims. I still don't know which is the truth. I doubt anyone in the Pentagon knows either.
    You should do a factual comparison between the salary and benefits each receive, then decide for yourself. As a civ, my salary is far below what my active duty co-workers make, plus I don't get bas, bah, free healthcare, free days off (i.e., family days), or even commissary rights (costs taxpayers $1.4 billion annually).

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    Senior Member efmbman's Avatar
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    Re: cutting headquarters staff

    Quote Originally Posted by FLAPS, USAF (ret) View Post
    You should do a factual comparison between the salary and benefits each receive, then decide for yourself. As a civ, my salary is far below what my active duty co-workers make, plus I don't get bas, bah, free healthcare, free days off (i.e., family days), or even commissary rights (costs taxpayers $1.4 billion annually).
    Of course, but both sides have presented what is claimed to be factual and each come to differing conclusions. There is a lot of "cost" to be considered beyond what is listed on pay scales, but the challenge is getting that info. It's a beast.
    When things go wrong in your command, start searching for the reason in increasingly larger concentric circles around your own desk.
    -GEN Bruce C. Clarke

  3. #23
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    Re: cutting headquarters staff

    Quote Originally Posted by efmbman View Post
    Of course, but both sides have presented what is claimed to be factual and each come to differing conclusions. There is a lot of "cost" to be considered beyond what is listed on pay scales, but the challenge is getting that info. It's a beast.
    Took me 27 seconds to google this.

    http://www.usa.gov/Federal-Employees/Benefits.shtml

  4. #24
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    Re: cutting headquarters staff

    Quote Originally Posted by efmbman View Post
    Of course, but both sides have presented what is claimed to be factual and each come to differing conclusions. There is a lot of "cost" to be considered beyond what is listed on pay scales, but the challenge is getting that info. It's a beast.
    It's all available on the internet. I attempted to post a link, but it's awaiting moderator approval. Just look up federal pay and benefits on USA dot gov.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Gonzo432's Avatar
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    Re: cutting headquarters staff

    I've been out of the Planning and Programming game a long time (I left HQ ACC in 2006) but the programming factors we used broke it out by averages for Os, Es and Civs. Until there are authorized positions, programming factors are used to estimate cost. A Lt Col Cop-type nearly imploded at a meeting when he was trying to replace contracted gate guards with GS. The GS guards would be 5s and 6s, far less money than the programming factors said. Civs ran about the average of the three, about half-way between the low maintenance Es and high-maintenance Os. :sly2: I couldn't pass that one up.

    Availability is a big plus with the civilians compared to military. There are factors used for authorized time GIs are away from the work center, but not near enough to cover. Comes down to a lower number of Civs will cover the shop. This is straight cold-hard mathematics, not observations I made over 21 years in uniform. This has nothing to do with Bruwin doing everything while the troops go to PT or AFMC civilians who have done nothing in their sorry excuses for lives (yes, we've met them).

    With this said: the big advantage to military? You can abuse them a ridiculous number of hours per day. I've heard people say that when the Mil-Civ conversion subject came up. The most evil laughed while they said it.
    "Wrong" is one of those concepts that requires witnesses. Catbert, Evil Director of Human Resources

  6. #26
    Senior Member efmbman's Avatar
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    Re: cutting headquarters staff

    Quote Originally Posted by FLAPS, USAF (ret) View Post
    Took me 27 seconds to google this.

    http://www.usa.gov/Federal-Employees/Benefits.shtml
    I've seen that before, and I am familiar with the OPM website since I am a Fed. The missing pieces are numerous:
    How many are receiving a locality pay?
    Which locality pay?
    How many are at each grade and step in which locality?
    Overseas, which are eligible for LQA?
    TSP / pension contributions can vary based matching funds.

    The list goes on and on...
    When things go wrong in your command, start searching for the reason in increasingly larger concentric circles around your own desk.
    -GEN Bruce C. Clarke

  7. #27
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    Re: cutting headquarters staff

    Quote Originally Posted by efmbman View Post
    I've seen that before, and I am familiar with the OPM website since I am a Fed. The missing pieces are numerous:
    How many are receiving a locality pay?
    Which locality pay?
    How many are at each grade and step in which locality?
    Overseas, which are eligible for LQA?
    TSP / pension contributions can vary based matching funds.

    The list goes on and on...
    Yeah, locality pay, tsp matching, etc. can add up. Even so, my active duty co-workers' pay, bah, bas, FREE health care, etc far exceed what I am compensated as a GS, even with the $8K locality pay I receive.

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    Re: cutting headquarters staff

    Quote Originally Posted by FLAPS, USAF (ret) View Post
    You should do a factual comparison between the salary and benefits each receive, then decide for yourself. As a civ, my salary is far below what my active duty co-workers make, plus I don't get bas, bah, free healthcare, free days off (i.e., family days), or even commissary rights (costs taxpayers $1.4 billion annually).
    Which is part of the problem. All of the positions arent created equal. I have worked with GSs that have gotten any combination of the benefits you say you arent getting and not because they were retirees. I dont know your job, but I would have to call you out on the family days though.

  9. #29
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    Re: cutting headquarters staff

    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne View Post
    Which is part of the problem. All of the positions arent created equal. I have worked with GSs that have gotten any combination of the benefits you say you arent getting and not because they were retirees. I dont know your job, but I would have to call you out on the family days though.
    I have to take annual leave on Family Days.

  10. #30
    Senior Member efmbman's Avatar
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    Re: cutting headquarters staff

    Quote Originally Posted by FLAPS, USAF (ret) View Post
    Yeah, locality pay, tsp matching, etc. can add up. Even so, my active duty co-workers' pay, bah, bas, FREE health care, etc far exceed what I am compensated as a GS, even with the $8K locality pay I receive.
    Do you mean that the compensation they receive far exceeds your now? Or are you considering long-term personnel expenses? Because of all the variables, I honestly do not think this can be figured out with any degree of accuracy. I'm not picking a fight - just throwing it out there. I do benefit from a pension and a federal salary, but I am also a taxpayer.
    When things go wrong in your command, start searching for the reason in increasingly larger concentric circles around your own desk.
    -GEN Bruce C. Clarke

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