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Thread: XO-CMC fired over toilet training

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    Senior Member BURAWSKI's Avatar
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    XO-CMC fired over toilet training

    http://www.navytimes.com/article/201...-toilet-hazing


    I don't agree with this. Sure, fire the XO and CMC, but don't fire the CO because he never was aware and never was told about it? It doesn't make a difference whether the CO was aware or not, he is still responsible. You can't delegate responsibility. He should have known about it - apparently a number of senior enlisted and officers were aware. Hey, I'm not saying don't punish the XO-CMC, but the CO should be held accountable, regardless of whether he knew about it or not. It's called Command Responsibility; you don't get a free pass on that one I'm afraid. I don't understand why the XO-CMC would be held accountable, and not the CO.

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    Re: XO-CMC fired over toilet training

    I personally don't believe this is hazing. It is more of a punishment and a message to others not to use toilets that are not working. I have run into that problem several times in my career, and I would have loved to do this to those people. Maybe next time the others in birthing will police each other. I am confused how the CO didn't know about this....

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    Senior Member Greg's Avatar
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    Re: XO-CMC fired over toilet training

    "A shipboard leader discovered human waste in two heads and ordered all 19 female sailors who live in the berthings to clean them out."

    Why all nineteen? That's a boot camp move. If this was the first incident of this type then I would have questions, and I would start at the bottom.

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    Senior Member BURAWSKI's Avatar
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    Re: XO-CMC fired over toilet training

    Quote Originally Posted by WINTHORP1 View Post
    I personally don't believe this is hazing. It is more of a punishment and a message to others not to use toilets that are not working. I have run into that problem several times in my career, and I would have loved to do this to those people. Maybe next time the others in birthing will police each other. I am confused how the CO didn't know about this....
    I think the Navy is saying it was hazing because they were forced to march in formation, in public, and were humiliated because they had to carry excrement in bags. It was the humiliation that is being used as the reason (and probably someone who complained to the IG). Ok, so they were humiliated (and had their feelings hurt). Big deal. You can't start firing people every time someone feels they were treated unfairly, humiliated or hazed. It looks like firing is the first and only option. Was there no other way to deal with this? And I still think that the CO has some answering to do. It still happened on his watch.

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    Re: XO-CMC fired over toilet training

    So the people who live in the birthing, who couldn't regulate themselves were forced to clean up their birthing's mess, and it hurt there feelings, so we call it hazing? Wow, the next thing you know, nursery rhymes will be hazing.......oh crap.

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    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Re: XO-CMC fired over toilet training

    I would think that having them clean up their mess would be enough. When administering corrective action, you have to be professional about it.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
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    Re: XO-CMC fired over toilet training

    Quote Originally Posted by WINTHORP1 View Post
    I personally don't believe this is hazing. It is more of a punishment and a message to others not to use toilets that are not working. I have run into that problem several times in my career, and I would have loved to do this to those people. Maybe next time the others in birthing will police each other. I am confused how the CO didn't know about this....
    This sounds exactly like what EMI is supposed to be, corrective action designed around the mistake that prompted EMI to be awarded..

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    Senior Member Stalwart's Avatar
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    Re: XO-CMC fired over toilet training

    Quote Originally Posted by BURAWSKI View Post
    It's called Command Responsibility; you don't get a free pass on that one I'm afraid. I don't understand why the XO-CMC would be held accountable, and not the CO.
    I don't disagree. I got the impression that the CMC & XO actively tried to keep the information from the CO, which may have influenced the decision to not relieve the CO as well. I would think that the CMC and XO were relieved not so much as a result of the hazing taking place, but for keeping the information from the CO -- the one ultimately responsible for everything on the ship.

    As far as the actual punishment, it probably could have been handled better. They had all already cleaned the head (good EMI). Marching the whole berthing space down the pier, in formation, carrying the bags was a bit much and turned EMI into a group shaming down the pier.

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    Re: XO-CMC fired over toilet training

    I really don't see how you can keep this from the CO. It's not like you took them to shaft alley and "counseled" them. They were marched in formation down the pier. That sort of thing doesn't normally happen. I think the CO did know, but didn't say anything until someone cried about it. Now it's the "I didn't know" defense. That kind of defense works all the time or none of the time, not when it's convenient.

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    Re: XO-CMC fired over toilet training

    Concur, the CO is ultimately responsible for what happens. However, in this case it appears there was a concerted attempt to keep the incident from them, which mitigated the situation. I would not be surprised, though, if the CO was counseled in private about the issue. I find it a little difficult to swallow that he did not at least hear RUMINT regarding this situation.

    19 female Sailors were ordered to clean up the mess without proper protective gear. Agree, that was clearly wrong. I don't have an issue with them cleaning the mess, just the fact that they did not have the proper gear to do so.

    13 were marched to the end of the pier to dispose of the sewage. Why only 13, instead of the full complement involved? Why have them in formation? I would have thought the one-sided conversation the person ordering them to clean the mess up had with them, in addition to them cleaning it up, would have sufficed. There was no need to call public attention to the issue.

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