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Thread: Immigration Reform: Tough to Sell Comprehensively, Maybe A La Carte?

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    Senior Member AJBIGJ's Avatar
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    Immigration Reform: Tough to Sell Comprehensively, Maybe A La Carte?

    Some are very passionate about the need for Immigration Reform, others believe the laws in place are fine, when executed properly...

    Which elements appeal most to you? Why?

    Is it Border Security? Do you believe the laws in place are insufficient or at least insufficiently executed to properly sustain the sovereignty of our borders? Is such a thing essential, or just a red herring to greater issues?

    Is it deportations? Are we doing enough? Are we doing too much?

    Is it the state of legality of immigrants? Do they deserve paths to citizenship? Do they deserve an easier means to legal immigrant status?

    Which elements appeal most to you, why, and which ones have priority?
    http://www.cato.org/multimedia/daily...eform-la-carte
    "The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." ~ Thomas Jefferson

    It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood.
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    Re: Immigration Reform: Tough to Sell Comprehensively, Maybe A La Carte?

    Border security is imo a joke. When we can have cameras on the border 'walls' monitoring everyone and their mother jumping the fences/walls, going through them/under them, or just walking 2-3 miles down the road to where the wall isn't to get by it, and nothing gets done, its imo a pointless exercise. The walls need to be full from one coast to the other, 20-30ft high with 2 separate layers so its harder to break it open, or Don't do it at all.

    Deportations - While the 'numbers' are supposedly up, the fact we still have 20-30 MILLION here and growing, shows deportations are not doing enough. Part of this imo falls to the DOJ and White house in their pushing a "no deporting policy" (what it seems to me).

    State of legality - Most definitely this is how i see things getting pushed.. What with more and more states giving illegals drivers licenses, id cards, and other programs (even though they are supposed to NOT be eligible for them) its pushing a mantra of "break the law, we don't care"..

    Do they Deserve a path to citizenship or legal status. NOPE.

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    Re: Immigration Reform: Tough to Sell Comprehensively, Maybe A La Carte?

    What is so troubling for me is the ignorance people seem to have about those coming from Mexico. These people are not coming accross the border of Mexico with doctorates or masters degrees. These people are low skilled workers that are flooding the already overburdened labor pool of no-skilled workers. Do the people of wal-mart, K-mart, Target and other such places really think going on strike because they are being asked to work on Thanksgiving day is going to hurt these companies who will have another 30 million people to hire? And blacks are behind the politicians who really want to leagalize all these low skilled workers when the black community is sitting around 12% unemployment. Maybe the thought is that they will gain in social status if another group of people are brought in with even lower marketable skills than they have? But the point is, the first generation of Mexicans or any other nationality immagrating to America are typically hard workers who will take any job possible to feed their families, and will take the jobs at a lower wage and will be thankful for it.

    If there is any one good reason to make these people "legal", I would love for someone to present it. Saying we have 30 million people breaking the law is not a good reason. If 30 million people started driving drunk everyday, would you say the DUI law is broken?
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    Re: Immigration Reform: Tough to Sell Comprehensively, Maybe A La Carte?

    Quote Originally Posted by WILDJOKER5 View Post
    If there is any one good reason to make these people "legal", I would love for someone to present it. Saying we have 30 million people breaking the law is not a good reason. If 30 million people started driving drunk everyday, would you say the DUI law is broken?
    Me personally I prefer to live in a world where people can go where they want and work where they want, if they are paying the same wage taxes US Citizens pay into then it just lightens the burden for the rest of us (relatively speaking). As long as when they come in they become more of a contributor than a disruption we can only gain by it, and if they prefer the latter they'll wind up incarcerated anyhow. There's a simple caveat to it, they're not doing so as US Citizens but as guests and as such are not entitled to the rights nor the privileges of US Citizenship (voting being among them).

    If our citizens aren't occupying the lower wage jobs the immigrants move into, they have very little right to complain that they have no jobs to begin with.

    The problem here is not in the immigration system it's the dependency developed by US citizens on the government and becoming essentially wards of the state. Right now there is little incentive to work in low wage labor because, quite frankly, people can actually do better on welfare.
    "The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." ~ Thomas Jefferson

    It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood.
    James Madison

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    Re: Immigration Reform: Tough to Sell Comprehensively, Maybe A La Carte?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJBIGJ View Post
    Me personally I prefer to live in a world where people can go where they want and work where they want, if they are paying the same wage taxes US Citizens pay into then it just lightens the burden for the rest of us (relatively speaking). As long as when they come in they become more of a contributor than a disruption we can only gain by it, and if they prefer the latter they'll wind up incarcerated anyhow. There's a simple caveat to it, they're not doing so as US Citizens but as guests and as such are not entitled to the rights nor the privileges of US Citizenship (voting being among them).

    If our citizens aren't occupying the lower wage jobs the immigrants move into, they have very little right to complain that they have no jobs to begin with.

    The problem here is not in the immigration system it's the dependency developed by US citizens on the government and becoming essentially wards of the state. Right now there is little incentive to work in low wage labor because, quite frankly, people can actually do better on welfare.
    Agreed, and no one is suggesting that illegals not be allowed welfare if they are legalized. These people are not going to be productive, its a simple fact that their education level and skill sets are not on par with even the lowest skilled worker from American schools.
    Liberalism; such great ideas, they need to force you to follow them.

    Socialism is for the people, not the socialist.

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    Re: Immigration Reform: Tough to Sell Comprehensively, Maybe A La Carte?

    Quote Originally Posted by WILDJOKER5 View Post
    Agreed, and no one is suggesting that illegals not be allowed welfare if they are legalized. These people are not going to be productive, its a simple fact that their education level and skill sets are not on par with even the lowest skilled worker from American schools.
    If they are taken into welfare and the ACA then probably so, since we rarely see immigration reform get much movement whatsoever it would be really hard to predict whether that would occur or not.
    "The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." ~ Thomas Jefferson

    It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood.
    James Madison

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    Re: Immigration Reform: Tough to Sell Comprehensively, Maybe A La Carte?

    Quote Originally Posted by WILDJOKER5 View Post
    What is so troubling for me is the ignorance people seem to have about those coming from Mexico. These people are not coming accross the border of Mexico with doctorates or masters degrees. These people are low skilled workers that are flooding the already overburdened labor pool of no-skilled workers.
    Oh really?!! Like we had many blacks and white people lining up in farms accross America wrestling agains one another to fight for those highly valued farm jobs, or jobs at the local restaurant, or local grocery store, or local hotel, or local construction company. Gimme a break!

    Do the people of wal-mart, K-mart, Target and other such places really think going on strike because they are being asked to work on Thanksgiving day is going to hurt these companies who will have another 30 million people to hire?
    Uhhh wut!!? And this the fault of whom? So you are placing the blame of companies not willing to pay their employees a living wage on the labor market? How about the companies start showing some level of social resposibility to their employees. God forbid they pay their employees a living wage while their top excutives get paid 5 thousand times more than their average worker. Gimme another break!!

    And blacks are behind the politicians who really want to leagalize all these low skilled workers when the black community is sitting around 12% unemployment. Maybe the thought is that they will gain in social status if another group of people are brought in with even lower marketable skills than they have?
    I kind of had an idea that race relations is not your strong suit but this comment above not only confirms it but it really makes you look beyond ignorant on the topic.

    But the point is, the first generation of Mexicans or any other nationality immagrating to America are typically hard workers who will take any job possible to feed their families, and will take the jobs at a lower wage and will be thankful for it.
    At last something thruthful.

    If there is any one good reason to make these people "legal", I would love for someone to present it. Saying we have 30 million people breaking the law is not a good reason. If 30 million people started driving drunk everyday, would you say the DUI law is broken?
    1. We are a nation of immigrants. We should never forget that.

    2. Its a civil rights issue. When speaking strictly about low skilled illegal immigrant workers the USA allowed this to happen. Mainly so the farmers and other industires could pay close to slave wages to many illegal immigrants while having them live in inhuman conditions while companies reaped profits. How we as a country can go around the world and highlight any civil rights issue of any other country when we have a class of citizens we basically no rights at all.

    3. Its a national security issue. With immigration reform approved, we will have another pool of people that could serve the country in many capacities: military, intelligence, science and technology. You might not know this but 40% of the people who are here illegally just overstayed their visa. Either students, temporary workers, tourist, athletes, many stay here for the opportunities. Many are highly educated but can't work on their professions due to their illegal status. It will open more economic opportunities for businesses, which means more jobs, more revenue for local, state and federal governments. And on top of that, if we as a country want to survive we needs babies, we need a strong, young, vibrant population. White population by the numbers is on the decline, the african american population as a whole is still trying to find its social footing in this country and who knows how much longer that will that take so a opening a path to citizenship to these group of people that are already here and have proven to be hard workers and of benefit to this society will guarantee the continuity of this country and the great ideas for which this country was founded upon.
    Antes de que vengas a juzgarme por que escribo el inglés con errores te pregunto: Cuantos idiomas tu hablas?! Solo uno? Y vienes a juzgar mi inteligencia?! Por favor mirate en el espejo y veras en él reflejo la imagen clara de la estupidez...

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    Re: Immigration Reform: Tough to Sell Comprehensively, Maybe A La Carte?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJBIGJ View Post
    Me personally I prefer to live in a world where people can go where they want and work where they want, if they are paying the same wage taxes US Citizens pay into then it just lightens the burden for the rest of us (relatively speaking). As long as when they come in they become more of a contributor than a disruption we can only gain by it, and if they prefer the latter they'll wind up incarcerated anyhow. There's a simple caveat to it, they're not doing so as US Citizens but as guests and as such are not entitled to the rights nor the privileges of US Citizenship (voting being among them).
    So you want us to become Saudi Arabia, or Kuwait, or Dubai... thats a nice list to be in if you are looking to be in the "countries with worst civil rights" list. What you fail to understand is that this country was founded by immigrants and it will take the blood of immigrants to make sure it continues living as it has, a beacon of democracy and hope and not as an kingdom in which just by having the luck of being born there you get to reap the rewards of your luck instead of becasue you did something to earn your keep.
    Antes de que vengas a juzgarme por que escribo el inglés con errores te pregunto: Cuantos idiomas tu hablas?! Solo uno? Y vienes a juzgar mi inteligencia?! Por favor mirate en el espejo y veras en él reflejo la imagen clara de la estupidez...

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    Re: Immigration Reform: Tough to Sell Comprehensively, Maybe A La Carte?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunch View Post
    So you want us to become Saudi Arabia, or Kuwait, or Dubai... thats a nice list to be in if you are looking to be in the "countries with worst civil rights" list. What you fail to understand is that this country was founded by immigrants and it will take the blood of immigrants to make sure it continues living as it has, a beacom of democracy and hope and not as an arab kingdom.
    I am at a loss of how you interpreted any of this from what you just quoted.
    "The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." ~ Thomas Jefferson

    It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood.
    James Madison

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    Re: Immigration Reform: Tough to Sell Comprehensively, Maybe A La Carte?

    I agree with most of what you said, but just some of my thoughts:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunch View Post
    1. We are a nation of immigrants. We should never forget that.
    Not so much anymore, we are now (mostly) a nation descended from immigrants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunch View Post
    2. Its a civil rights issue. When speaking strictly about low skilled illegal immigrant workers the USA allowed this to happen. Mainly so the farmers and other industires could pay close to slave wages to many illegal immigrants while having them live in inhuman conditions while companies reaped profits. How we as a country can go around the world and highlight any civil rights issue of any other country when we have a class of citizens we basically no rights at all.
    I don't disagree with you on principle, but until people in America are truly willing to also pay the increased cost associated with paying workers (whether at Wal-Mart or in agriculture etc) a higher wage we are not likely to see much change here. The same issue exists with paying larger salaries to fast food workers, the $6 or $7 value meal may not be so enticing if it is going to cost $8 or $9.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunch View Post
    3. Its a national security issue. With immigration reform approved, we will have another pool of people that could serve the country in many capacities: military, intelligence, science and technology. You might not know this but 40% of the people who are here illegally just overstayed their visa. Either students, temporary workers, tourist, athletes, many stay here for the opportunities. Many are highly educated but can't work on their professions due to their illegal status. It will open more economic opportunities for businesses, which means more jobs, more revenue for local, state and federal governments. And on top of that, if we as a country want to survive we needs babies, we need a strong, young, vibrant population. White population by the numbers is on the decline, the african american population as a whole is still trying to find its social footing in this country and who knows how much longer that will that take so a opening a path to citizenship to these group of people that are already here and have proven to be hard workers and of benefit to this society will guarantee the continuity of this country and the great ideas for which this country was founded upon.
    Many immigrants benefit American society, some don't (some native born U.S. citizens don't benefit our society either.) I think part of the issue is competition. Every time a qualified citizen is passed over in lieu of a qualified immigrant there is concern of the effects that has on the native work force. The issue is finding a balance. I agree there is the ability to open more economic opportunity for business, but if a large influx of immigrant workforce displaces native-born workers can the job creation keep up with the potentially unemployed?

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