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Thread: Rich People

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    Senior Member Monkey's Avatar
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    Rich People

    There was a thread that ran its course last year that was one of the typical left vs right arguments--I really can't recall which one. At one point in the conversation, there were several posts that were derogatory towards the rich (i.e. "rich people are a$$&*(^s", "I can't stand rich people", etc.). The disgust towards the rich was initiated by JoeB (of course) but seemed to be shared by all.

    Is this accurate that the majority of posters here have contempt for the rich? If so, what is your reasoning?
    When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion.
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    Senior Member AJBIGJ's Avatar
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    Re: Rich People

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey View Post
    There was a thread that ran its course last year that was one of the typical left vs right arguments--I really can't recall which one. At one point in the conversation, there were several posts that were derogatory towards the rich (i.e. "rich people are a$$&*(^s", "I can't stand rich people", etc.). The disgust towards the rich was initiated by JoeB (of course) but seemed to be shared by all.

    Is this accurate that the majority of posters here have contempt for the rich? If so, what is your reasoning?
    I have a certain level of contempt for corporations receiving bailouts from the government, as well as individuals who exploit such. I also have a certain contempt for the revolving door between the public and private sectors where legislators and lobbyists work out drug deals for legislation buried in appropriations bills that gives the private sector entities an advantage in their market niche and then open their doors to the former legislators after they leave office (often to see those individuals return again one day in the future). I doubt these were very much resembling any arguments JB would have made.

    People who get ahead through being more innovative than the competition in a fair competitive environment I have no issues with. Be it celebrity, athlete, or CEO, we as consumers pay them the value we see in their contributions by purchasing the goods and services they offer. We may not determine their compensation via paychecks directly, but we provide the capital resources to those who do.
    "The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." ~ Thomas Jefferson

    It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood.
    James Madison

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    Senior Member efmbman's Avatar
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    Re: Rich People

    Quote Originally Posted by AJBIGJ View Post
    I have a certain level of contempt for corporations receiving bailouts from the government, as well as individuals who exploit such. I also have a certain contempt for the revolving door between the public and private sectors where legislators and lobbyists work out drug deals for legislation buried in appropriations bills that gives the private sector entities an advantage in their market niche and then open their doors to the former legislators after they leave office (often to see those individuals return again one day in the future). I doubt these were very much resembling any arguments JB would have made.

    People who get ahead through being more innovative than the competition in a fair competitive environment I have no issues with. Be it celebrity, athlete, or CEO, we as consumers pay them the value we see in their contributions by purchasing the goods and services they offer. We may not determine their compensation via paychecks directly, but we provide the capital resources to those who do.
    Sums up my position nicely. I am not a fan of my tax dollars being used to bailout any company that fails or is failing as a result of poor decisions and practices. Survival of the fittest goes for the business world, too.

    I do not hate the rich, nor do I hate the poor. I am concerned about the middle class.
    When things go wrong in your command, start searching for the reason in increasingly larger concentric circles around your own desk.
    -GEN Bruce C. Clarke

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    Re: Rich People

    Speaking for myself, I don't have a general contempt for "the rich"...on the other hand, a lot of rich people got rich by being immoral and/or unethical and are deserving of contempt as individuals.

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    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Rich People

    We live in a world of finite resources and, as such, the game of rich and poor is a zero sum game. The more one has, the less someone else does.

    I'm a firm believer in "live simply, so that others may simply live." That doesn't mean that you shouldn't have nice things, but it gets pretty ridiculous when a corporate executive has a private jet and five chauffeurs; while his employees are struggling to make ends meet. If the company is having financial trouble, that executive's money won't get touched. He's not giving up a dime. He's going to slash the pay of the workers, or even lay them off... workers who are only one paycheck away from being homeless.

    The issue isn't whether or not someone is rich. The issue is whether or not the wealth - and the power that comes with it - is abused.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

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    Senior Member AJBIGJ's Avatar
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    Re: Rich People

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    We live in a world of finite resources and, as such, the game of rich and poor is a zero sum game. The more one has, the less someone else does.

    I'm a firm believer in "live simply, so that others may simply live." That doesn't mean that you shouldn't have nice things, but it gets pretty ridiculous when a corporate executive has a private jet and five chauffeurs; while his employees are struggling to make ends meet. If the company is having financial trouble, that executive's money won't get touched. He's not giving up a dime. He's going to slash the pay of the workers, or even lay them off... workers who are only one paycheck away from being homeless.

    The issue isn't whether or not someone is rich. The issue is whether or not the wealth - and the power that comes with it - is abused.
    Some resources are indeed finite, but not all. Innovation is a resource of the latter category, and even our being limited to the tangible resources that exist on this world is only applicable to the here and now. I'll grant you these resources are not as tangible or as fully realized as say the oil in an oil field, but they do hold a certain monetary value, or potential for it. The problem with your philosophy is, at least in premise would add constraints with completely vague and arbitrary terms on individuals. If we expect to hold individuals to these constraints, it would require some form of specific definitions at least in terms of lower and upper limits. After thus a government entity would be required to use force, sometimes even violent force, to take the possessions of those who exceed the maximum allowable in the constraint window to be redistributed elsewhere.

    We could go into the discussion about how having the fruits of ones accomplishments ransacked to accomplish this goal of "equal outcomes" will actively discourage a greater level of performance than that which is required to achieve that maximum, but I think that dead horse is as putrid as they come.
    "The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." ~ Thomas Jefferson

    It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood.
    James Madison

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    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Rich People

    Quote Originally Posted by AJBIGJ View Post
    Some resources are indeed finite, but not all. Innovation is a resource of the latter category, and even our being limited to the tangible resources that exist on this world is only applicable to the here and now. I'll grant you these resources are not as tangible or as fully realized as say the oil in an oil field, but they do hold a certain monetary value, or potential for it. The problem with your philosophy is, at least in premise would add constraints with completely vague and arbitrary terms on individuals. If we expect to hold individuals to these constraints, it would require some form of specific definitions at least in terms of lower and upper limits. After thus a government entity would be required to use force, sometimes even violent force, to take the possessions of those who exceed the maximum allowable in the constraint window to be redistributed elsewhere.

    We could go into the discussion about how having the fruits of ones accomplishments ransacked to accomplish this goal of "equal outcomes" will actively discourage a greater level of performance than that which is required to achieve that maximum, but I think that dead horse is as putrid as they come.
    Even if everyone was "innovative," there's only still but so much to go around to reward people for their innovation. We're back to square one.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

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    Junior Member ThaBufe's Avatar
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    Re: Rich People

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    We live in a world of finite resources and, as such, the game of rich and poor is a zero sum game. The more one has, the less someone else does.

    I'm a firm believer in "live simply, so that others may simply live." That doesn't mean that you shouldn't have nice things, but it gets pretty ridiculous when a corporate executive has a private jet and five chauffeurs; while his employees are struggling to make ends meet. If the company is having financial trouble, that executive's money won't get touched. He's not giving up a dime. He's going to slash the pay of the workers, or even lay them off... workers who are only one paycheck away from being homeless.

    The issue isn't whether or not someone is rich. The issue is whether or not the wealth - and the power that comes with it - is abused.
    While resources are indeed finite, we have plenty of the ones that really matter. I don't really concern myself we weather or not everyone has a Mercedes. I don't really care if things are "fair". What I care about is whether or not people have food on the table and a roof over their heads. As such, the rich people that I really have an issue with are the ones that have a mountain of cash and just sit on it. If some guy has a billion dollars, I want him to have a private jet and five chauffeurs. In fact, I want him to have 10 private jets and 500 chauffeurs. Because the people that build and maintain those jets, and all of those chauffeurs get to eat today and can pay the mortgage. No matter how much of a rich asshole he is, he can only eat so much food. I don't care if it cost him $10k/plate or $3.00. He can only wear so much clothing; its cost doesn't matter to me. So to all the exceedingly rich assholes out there, spend and spend big. People need to eat and they'll gladly make a bunch of crap you don't need and sell it to you in order to do that. And if all that crap makes you feel better or more important, then I really hope you enjoy your illusion.

    Rusty, based on your gripes with the rich, it appears that you are far less concerned about “finite resources” and far more concerned with everybody having the same amount/quality of “stuff”. That’s not really a philosophy that I can get behind because at the end of the day, all of that stuff doesn’t mean jack and there are plenty of private jets to go around to those who really want and can afford them. There is also plenty of food, houses, and clothing to go around too, but it’s not free. I want people to have jobs for that stuff and if some dude has to own a private jet so that another 100 people can have those things, I’m good with that.

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    Senior Member AJBIGJ's Avatar
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    Re: Rich People

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Jones View Post
    Even if everyone was "innovative," there's only still but so much to go around to reward people for their innovation. We're back to square one.
    Well that's simply not true. GDP itself is not stagnant, which is a better measure of economic strength than most things.
    "The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." ~ Thomas Jefferson

    It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood.
    James Madison

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    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Rich People

    Quote Originally Posted by ThaBufe View Post
    While resources are indeed finite, we have plenty of the ones that really matter. I don't really concern myself we weather or not everyone has a Mercedes. I don't really care if things are "fair". What I care about is whether or not people have food on the table and a roof over their heads. As such, the rich people that I really have an issue with are the ones that have a mountain of cash and just sit on it. If some guy has a billion dollars, I want him to have a private jet and five chauffeurs. In fact, I want him to have 10 private jets and 500 chauffeurs. Because the people that build and maintain those jets, and all of those chauffeurs get to eat today and can pay the mortgage. No matter how much of a rich asshole he is, he can only eat so much food. I don't care if it cost him $10k/plate or $3.00. He can only wear so much clothing; its cost doesn't matter to me. So to all the exceedingly rich assholes out there, spend and spend big. People need to eat and they'll gladly make a bunch of crap you don't need and sell it to you in order to do that. And if all that crap makes you feel better or more important, then I really hope you enjoy your illusion.
    You ignored the example I gave. You gave the example of an "old money" rich guy who doesn't occupy position that affects other people - like a corporate executive. I'm talking about people in these positions who, when called upon to make decisions that adversely affect personnel, will screw the workers so that they themselves won't have to share in the sacrifice.

    Rusty, based on your gripes with the rich, it appears that you are far less concerned about “finite resources” and far more concerned with everybody having the same amount/quality of “stuff”. That’s not really a philosophy that I can get behind because at the end of the day, all of that stuff doesn’t mean jack and there are plenty of private jets to go around to those who really want and can afford them. There is also plenty of food, houses, and clothing to go around too, but it’s not free. I want people to have jobs for that stuff and if some dude has to own a private jet so that another 100 people can have those things, I’m good with that.
    Straw man. You can't argue with what I said, so you attribute something else to me and argue with THAT instead. Tsk, tsk.

    Quote Originally Posted by AJBIGJ View Post
    Well that's simply not true. GDP itself is not stagnant, which is a better measure of economic strength than most things.
    GDP is measured by country. If someone else is gaining, we could be losing and vice versa.
    "Well... Uber's going to "driverless" cars soon, and their research probably shows that they're a natural fit (when it comes to getting paid for doing nothing)."
    -Rainmaker, referencing black males

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