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Thread: EPR Changes

  1. #211
    Junior Member pjluckyman's Avatar
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    Re: EPR Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastercone View Post
    The most glaring flaw in your analysis is that ONLY 37,402 of the 68,011 SSgts (ESTIMATED) which you emphasized were eligible for promotion. On the TIG-TIS points alone, if we simply examine the latest promotion statistics for E-6 from the 12E6 cycle, you should be able to more clearly understand the illustration in my previous post:

    CYCLE 12E6: AF Averages
    --------------------YRS-----YRS-------------TIG-----TIS
    --------------------NBR-----TIG-----TIS-----PTS-----PTS-----EPR-----SKT-----PFE
    AF AVG ELIGIBLES----37,402--3.99----9.28----30.36---20.82---131.73--48.42---64.53
    NONSELECT-----------28,884--3.58----8.90----27.92---20.06---131.44--46.39---61.33
    SELECTEE-------------8,518--5.39---10.58----38.64---23.42---132.69--55.39---75.37

    AFPC LINK -- CYCLE 12E6: AF Averages http://www.afpc.af.mil/shared/media/...120621-010.pdf

    Keeping in mind that TIG & TIS points are calculated to the end of the promotion cycle(at least it used to be), ALL of these points would be eliminated under the plan you posted. Without TIG & TIS points, there is literally no difference between 5 year SSgt or a 10 year SSgt or any other SSgt other than TEST SCORES, EPRs, and DECORATIONS. Under this system, test scores would count for a maximum of 200 points versus only 160 points for EPRs & Decorations.

    I've seen references on this board about younger promotees being referred to as 'professional test takers', etc. They're not. The difference is that they figured out in well in advance of many others that if you're in the service for a career then you have to COMPETE to get ahead and WAPS has always been about competition. In 1985, I had a good friend of mine get selected for MSgt first time up at age 26. If he can do it, then anyone can do it. That's the point. They are out there, even today, but they were able to do it because they really studied, had some luck, and obviously had competitors that did not equally apply themselves to the task.

    Eliminating the TIS-TIG point spread eliminates this cumulative cushion that members with seniority have come to enjoy for decades. In the end I would be surprised if they eliminated it but, if they did, it would at least force everyone to start studying AND performing or be prepared to work for the very subordinates that you once supervised in the future.
    My point with showing you the total breakdown of SSgts was to make the point that the amount of SSgts above 12 years is a small amount compared to the total of all SSgt's even if you take out half of the SSgt's there is still only a total of 13 point difference in selects and non-selects in TIG/TIS points. So on the average that is less than two years of TIG and TIS points. The average select also scored 14 points higher on the PDG. I don't think the advantage is as much as you make it out to be. Are there people that ride out till the make it on TIS/TIG sure, but I don't think there are that many. The total numbers just don't show that to be the case. When I said eligible, all of them are eligible if they meet the PECD unless otherwise eliminated by other factors like EPR's/punishment and such. Also the data you posted goes along with the data below that the majority of selects are from the largest group plus or minus a year in TIG. There is no large group of people riding it out in TIG or TIS in either group of data that I posted.

    Here is the current TIG listing of SSgt's also. Around 25K are potentially eliminated by TIG minimum not being met.
    TIME IN GRADE (YEARS)
    0 13,531
    1 11,283
    2 12,145
    3 11,690
    4 7,987
    5 6,408
    6 3,123
    7 1,165
    8 349
    9 127
    10 97
    11 74
    12 30
    14 1
    15 1
    TOTAL 68,011

  2. #212
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    Re: EPR Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Measure Man View Post
    My first inclination was to agree with your point. It was also my first reaction when I read it.

    But if "experience matters"...shouldn't it show in non-inflated EPR ratings??
    For some but not for others. I don't penalize a new whatever for not knowing things that he shouldn't know. Is he developing as expected? It's not fair to compare him to the guy with 5 yrs TIG. I knew a guy that cross-trained as a MSgt and his first EPR in the career field was a 3 because he didn't know shit.

  3. #213
    Senior Member Chief_KO's Avatar
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    Re: EPR Changes

    Here's an idea regarding cross trainees. No EPR in their new career field for the first year.
    Could apply the same principle to those that PCS 4 months (120 days) prior to their PECD...no EPR for that year next EPR would be for a two year period...

    I know, there are holes to that plan as well...as to every plan. But if the concern is that a newly retrained NCO cannot be rated against his peers with minimal/zero experience this is one way...
    "Never force a fart in Djibouti"..."Always marry your second wife first"..."If anyone says that you're not a team player, maybe they're on the wrong team"..."You can gold plate a turd and it's still a turd"

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    Re: EPR Changes

    [QUOTE=Chief_KO;656827]Here's an idea regarding cross trainees. No EPR in their new career field for the first year.
    QUOTE]

    Learning a new job isn't an all or nothing process. Everyone has a training plan. Does the trainee know what he should 1 month out of tech school? Four months etc?

  5. #215
    Member Filterbing's Avatar
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    Re: EPR Changes

    This was talked about again at a recent commanders call that these rumors are just that. The topic will be discussed are corona and changes to be announced when "they" are ready to announce them.

    This type of thinking is exactly what is wrong in the force. I get it that it's the military and we should do as we are told. Blah blah blah. On the other hand there is a lot of experience out in our force that isn't invited to these corona type meetings. Airing out ideas in a public forum, such as this, allows for some checks and balances that decision makers have routinely not sought out. The example of tucking pants into the boots is a good one, also the entire implementation of the ABU is another. We would all be wearing a bright blue smurf suits if they hadn't asked for feedback after the fact.

    I don't know if these decision makers will see this or not. My hope is that they have read some of these ideas brought up throough this discussion and will talk them through. but probably not... Oh well.
    Last edited by Filterbing; 07-31-2014 at 12:03 PM.

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    Member Filterbing's Avatar
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    Interesting to reread some of this in light of the recent anouncement

  7. #217
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    My whole problem with EPR inflation is that even when we were working to eliminate it, there were forces at work to insist on it. Back around 1995 we had a meeting with our CC and Group CC telling us we had to eliminate EPR inflation but at the same time they told us if someone has a 4 in their three year tour at Elmo, they would not get a PCS medal...Period. What message is that sending? Later as a Shirt, we had to send up a push note to the Group CC because a TSgt had 1 markdown on 1 EPR in 3 yrs. They ended up downgrading it to an achievement. Again, what is the message being sent?

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    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief_KO View Post
    Here's an idea regarding cross trainees. No EPR in their new career field for the first year.
    Could apply the same principle to those that PCS 4 months (120 days) prior to their PECD...no EPR for that year next EPR would be for a two year period...

    I know, there are holes to that plan as well...as to every plan. But if the concern is that a newly retrained NCO cannot be rated against his peers with minimal/zero experience this is one way...
    The problem with that is that, especially with those testing for MSgt, that test scores are going to determine whether or not you go to the board. That immediately removes a cross trainee from promotion eligibility. And, as you know, a SNCO is a management position where actual job knowledge doesn't make any difference (remember that 623s don't even apply to SNCOs) so should someone with the opportunity to get promoted to a management position have that denied just because he hasn't been in the career field long enough?

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