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Thread: Hassan the Terrorist is CONVICTED

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    Senior Member grimreaper's Avatar
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    Re: Hassan the Terrorist is CONVICTED

    Quote Originally Posted by Measure Man View Post
    Yes...they absolutely should say something. They did. He refused to shave. They considered having him forcibly shaved...it went to the appeals court.

    If someone was attending...that person could be removed the courtroom without affecting the fairness of the trial. Not so clear with the accused. If he was removed from the courtroom and tried in absentia, or forcibly shaved...the issue of the fairness of trial is at least somewhat in question and opens the door to a complicated appeals, etc.

    All in all...I think the second judge got the better results.
    Fairness of the trial? So what wouldn't be "fair" about it if he was forcibly shaven? Do we not expect the same out of everyone?

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    Senior Member grimreaper's Avatar
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    Re: Hassan the Terrorist is CONVICTED

    Quote Originally Posted by Pullinteeth View Post
    Absolutely. There are SOME things that you cannot be forced to do when in pre-trial confinement that you can be forced to do once you are convicted.
    And why do you think beards are not allowed? Mainly due to hygienic reasons. You don't think the same thing applies in jail?

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    Re: Hassan the Terrorist is CONVICTED

    Quote Originally Posted by grimreaper View Post
    Fairness of the trial? So what wouldn't be "fair" about it if he was forcibly shaven? Do we not expect the same out of everyone?
    If you can't understand the difference between a prisoner and "the accused" then we are at an impass. Here is what the Federal Court said about inmates;

    "We are not unmindful that prison officials must be accorded latitude in the administration of prison affairs, and that prisoners necessarily are subject to appropriate rules and regulations. But persons in prison, like other individuals, have the right to petition the Government for redress of grievances …"

    So in a nutshell, they can forcibly shave him and if he doesn't like it, he can try to sue. Since it is part of the regulations of that particular prison, I think he would have a tough time winning that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by grimreaper View Post
    And why do you think beards are not allowed? Mainly due to hygienic reasons. You don't think the same thing applies in jail?
    You are mistaken. The Federal Prison regulations/Poilicies ALLOW beards. Leavenworth regulations do not. Difference? Federal Prison vs. Military Prison
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  4. #104
    Senior Member grimreaper's Avatar
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    Re: Hassan the Terrorist is CONVICTED

    Quote Originally Posted by Pullinteeth View Post
    If you can't understand the difference between a prisoner and "the accused" then we are at an impass. Here is what the Federal Court said about inmates;

    "We are not unmindful that prison officials must be accorded latitude in the administration of prison affairs, and that prisoners necessarily are subject to appropriate rules and regulations. But persons in prison, like other individuals, have the right to petition the Government for redress of grievances …"

    So in a nutshell, they can forcibly shave him and if he doesn't like it, he can try to sue. Since it is part of the regulations of that particular prison, I think he would have a tough time winning that one.
    It is part of military regulations too, but I guess those don't matter.

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    Senior Member grimreaper's Avatar
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    Re: Hassan the Terrorist is CONVICTED

    Quote Originally Posted by Measure Man View Post
    It puts the judges impartiality into question.
    How so? If everyone is treated the same, how can you question impartiality? As a matter of fact, by allowing it, it does question impartiality in the other direction.

    So I guess now, everyone can have a mowhawk and a goatee in court if they want. After all, we have to be impartial.

    For as big a scumbag B. Manning is, he at least had the sense to be in proper regulations in his trial.

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    Senior Member Rusty Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Hassan the Terrorist is CONVICTED

    Quote Originally Posted by grimreaper View Post
    It is part of military regulations too, but I guess those don't matter.
    Only when in uniform.
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    Re: Hassan the Terrorist is CONVICTED

    Quote Originally Posted by grimreaper View Post
    It is part of military regulations too, but I guess those don't matter.
    The courts addressed that as well;

    "Persons not yet convicted of a crime may be detained by government upon the appropriate determination of probable cause and the detention may be effectuated through subjection of the prisoner to the restrictions and conditions of the detention facility. But a detainee may not be punished prior to an adjudication of guilt in accordance with due process of law. Therefore, unconvicted detainees may not be subjected to conditions and restrictions that amount to punishment. However, the Court limited its concept of punishment to practices intentionally inflicted by prison authorities and to practices which were arbitrary or purposeless and unrelated to legitimate institutional objectives."

    So.....to impose these guidelines on someone in pretrial confinement, they would have to PROVE a purpose. After conviction, merely having the regulation would be enough to force compliance. Not what you wanted to hear I know but....
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    Senior Member grimreaper's Avatar
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    Re: Hassan the Terrorist is CONVICTED

    Quote Originally Posted by Measure Man View Post
    It puts the judges impartiality into question. He is no longer acting as an independent and impartial arbiter, but as an authority enforcing regulations dress and grooming standards on a not-yet convicted accused.

    Bottom line, although he may be a military officer, in this particular case, his role as judge supercedes his responsibilities as a military officer.
    Negative. You are a military member first, your job is secondary, especially in the Army...everyone is a soldier first.

    And if everyone is treated the same, I'm still not buying that you can call a judge's impartiality into question.

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    Re: Hassan the Terrorist is CONVICTED

    Quote Originally Posted by grimreaper View Post
    Negative. You are a military member first, your job is secondary, especially in the Army...everyone is a soldier first.

    And if everyone is treated the same, I'm still not buying that you can call a judge's impartiality into question.
    Soldier isn't an MOS....I think you meant to type infantry....
    “I say, imagine in your private life, if you decided that I’m not going to pay my mortgage for a month or two—first of all you’re not saving money by not paying your mortgage. You’re just a dead beat. “

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    Senior Member grimreaper's Avatar
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    Re: Hassan the Terrorist is CONVICTED

    Quote Originally Posted by Pullinteeth View Post
    The courts addressed that as well;

    "Persons not yet convicted of a crime may be detained by government upon the appropriate determination of probable cause and the detention may be effectuated through subjection of the prisoner to the restrictions and conditions of the detention facility. But a detainee may not be punished prior to an adjudication of guilt in accordance with due process of law. Therefore, unconvicted detainees may not be subjected to conditions and restrictions that amount to punishment. However, the Court limited its concept of punishment to practices intentionally inflicted by prison authorities and to practices which were arbitrary or purposeless and unrelated to legitimate institutional objectives."

    So.....to impose these guidelines on someone in pretrial confinement, they would have to PROVE a purpose. After conviction, merely having the regulation would be enough to force compliance. Not what you wanted to hear I know but....
    Dress and appearance regulations are not "arbitrary", nor are they optional, so I fail to see what the point of that was.

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