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Thread: Atheist vs Christian Debate

  1. #61
    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe Anecdote View Post
    I try to make a point in everything I say in here. Why would you find that surprising?

    Anyway, you like the story of Abraham and Lot?

    It is a pretty good story, it is one that stands out as being somewhat descriptive in geographic references and from a literary stand point, the English version of it in the New International Version, even sets a tone for the story despite its many translations and re-writes.

    Which translation of the bible do you read? Because I'll switch to your translation of the bible to discuss Abraham and Lot with you.
    I reference different versions. I like to compare when I'm looking things up. American, International, King James.

    I don't like Genesis 13 based on the geographic references. It's about a guy not being selfish, realizing how lucky he is to have what he has and not wanting to cause conflict with someone else.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Absinthe Anecdote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    I reference different versions. I like to compare when I'm looking things up. American, International, King James.

    I don't like Genesis 13 based on the geographic references. It's about a guy not being selfish, realizing how lucky he is to have what he has and not wanting to cause conflict with someone else.
    Really? What about God showing extreme favor to Abraham and sending Lot to the meat grinder that will become Sodom?

    New International Version
    14 The Lord said to Abram after Lot had parted from him, “Look around from where you are, to the north and south, to the east and west. 15 All the land that you see I will give to you and your offspring[a] forever. 16 I will make your offspring like the dust of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust, then your offspring could be counted. 17 Go, walk through the length and breadth of the land, for I am giving it to you.”
    And it wasn't about Abraham not being selfish either. If Abraham and Lot had stayed together, they would have pissed off the surrounding tribes too.

    Remember, their flocks were too great together and that there were not enough resources to support them.

    They had to split up, to prevent conflict with not only each other, but the local tribes, remember?

    Genesis 13 New International Version (NIV)

    Abram and Lot Separate
    13 So Abram went up from Egypt to the Negev, with his wife and everything he had, and Lot went with him. 2 Abram had become very wealthy in livestock and in silver and gold.

    3 From the Negev he went from place to place until he came to Bethel, to the place between Bethel and Ai where his tent had been earlier 4 and where he had first built an altar. There Abram called on the name of the Lord.

    5 Now Lot, who was moving about with Abram, also had flocks and herds and tents. 6 But the land could not support them while they stayed together, for their possessions were so great that they were not able to stay together. 7 And quarreling arose between Abram’s herders and Lot’s. The Canaanites and Perizzites were also living in the land at that time.

    8 So Abram said to Lot, “Let’s not have any quarreling between you and me, or between your herders and mine, for we are close relatives. 9 Is not the whole land before you? Let’s part company. If you go to the left, I’ll go to the right; if you go to the right, I’ll go to the left.”

    10 Lot looked around and saw that the whole plain of the Jordan toward Zoar was well watered, like the garden of the Lord, like the land of Egypt. (This was before the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.) 11 So Lot chose for himself the whole plain of the Jordan and set out toward the east. The two men parted company: 12 Abram lived in the land of Canaan, while Lot lived among the cities of the plain and pitched his tents near Sodom. 13 Now the people of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the Lord.

    14 The Lord said to Abram after Lot had parted from him, “Look around from where you are, to the north and south, to the east and west. 15 All the land that you see I will give to you and your offspring[a] forever. 16 I will make your offspring like the dust of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust, then your offspring could be counted. 17 Go, walk through the length and breadth of the land, for I am giving it to you.”

    18 So Abram went to live near the great trees of Mamre at Hebron, where he pitched his tents. There he built an altar to the Lord.

    Footnotes:

    Genesis 13:15 Or seed; also in verse 16
    New International Version (NIV)
    Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.
    Last edited by Absinthe Anecdote; 05-19-2015 at 01:16 PM.
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  3. #63
    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe Anecdote View Post
    Really? What about God showing extreme favor to Abraham and sending Lot to the meat grinder that will become Sodom?
    This story is about somebody being content with what they have and not getting jealous because someone else has something better. This is a guy making $60k a year being able to call himself successful.



    And it wasn't about Abraham not being selfish either. If Abraham and Lot had stayed together, they would have pissed off the surrounding tribes too.
    It was about Abraham saying "You take what you want, I'll take what's left." If you get something else from the story than that's great, but that's not what I take from it.

    Remember, their flocks were too great together and that there were not enough resources to support them.

    They had to split up, to prevent conflict with not only each other, but the local tribes, remember?
    Right, but Abraham didn't care which direction, which land, he got. He wasn't going to fight with Lot about who got more or who got less. That's the point of the story, IMO.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Absinthe Anecdote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    This story is about somebody being content with what they have and not getting jealous because someone else has something better. This is a guy making $60k a year being able to call himself successful.
    You don't have anything to do with this story. It isn't about being content either.


    It was about Abraham saying "You take what you want, I'll take what's left." If you get something else from the story than that's great, but that's not what I take from it.
    They weren't taking anything, either. Abraham and Lot were nomadic people in this story. The were talking about which way to go when they split up.
    Right, but Abraham didn't care which direction, which land, he got. He wasn't going to fight with Lot about who got more or who got less. That's the point of the story, IMO.
    Go back and read it again, the book of Genesis it is more of a chronology and not every little story is a parable or a moral lesson. Although one can inject moral lessons, if they wish, but that isn't the point of story.

    Abraham's larger story is an account of the first Hebrew, or the first Muslim if you prefer that view on it.
    Last edited by Absinthe Anecdote; 05-19-2015 at 02:27 PM.
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  5. #65
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    Abraham's larger story is an account of the first Hebrew, or the first Muslim if you prefer that view on it.
    Indeed it is...and I have no preference as to whether he was the first Hebrew or Muslim.

  6. #66
    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe Anecdote View Post
    Although one can inject moral lessons, if they wish, but that isn't the point of story.
    That's absolutely what it's about. That's what the entire bible is about.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Absinthe Anecdote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandsjames View Post
    That's absolutely what it's about. That's what the entire bible is about.
    LOL!

    The entire bible is about injecting one's morals into it.

    You said that, not me.

    What does this tell us about the bible. If it were really a book from the creator of the universe, then why have it appear as folk lore?

    Not only that, morally inferior folk lore. Folk lore that has sanctioned human behavior in it that we consider horrendous.

    Why must the creator talk to us only through folk lore? Also, why are the creator's morals inferior to our own?
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  8. #68
    Banned sandsjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe Anecdote View Post
    LOL!

    The entire bible is about injecting one's morals into it.

    You said that, not me.
    You seem like you think you won something???

    What does this tell us about the bible. If it were really a book from the creator of the universe, then why have it appear as folk lore?

    Not only that, morally inferior folk lore. Folk lore that has sanctioned human behavior in it that we consider horrendous.

    Why must the creator talk to us only through folk lore? Also, why are the creator's morals inferior to our own?
    I don't know why.

    One big difference between us is that I'm a "glass half full" guy and you're a "I wanna break your glass because I don't like you drinking out of it" kinda guy.

    You continue to think that everyone should get the same message from the bible. I do not think that. That's something we'll never agree on so I still can't see what you are trying to do with this conversation.

    Actually, I do see what you're trying to do. It's the typical internet forum maneuver where you spend all your time trying to catch me in a contradiction so you can feel like you win. You're not even trying to make a point anymore. You're simply trying to create a dialogue that will lead me into having to backtrack. I suppose that might be fun but I'm not sure why.

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