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Thread: Recovering from a Referral "4"

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    Recovering from a Referral "4"

    With stellar EPRs and all boxes checked/SR endorsed:

    Is it possible to make SMSgt within HYT if I had a Referral "4"(for a PT failure) as a TSgt at my 14 year mark? Outside of remotes/365s, I don't think I will be able to put 10 EPRs on top of that bad one.

    or to paraphrase:

    How critical are the "bottom" 5 EPRs to a board?



    When I ask these questions in person, I feel like I get the "you can do anything you put your mind to" answer. I need brutal honesty. In reality, I need to know if this obstacle is too large to overcome.
    Must be nice to have breakfest with family....Maintenance guys have got it made-BRUWIN

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    Re: Recovering from a Referral "4"

    Stats are pretty clear who gets picked up.

    SMSgt AF averages
    2013 - 135
    2012 - 134.99
    2011 - 134.98
    2010 - 135
    2009 - 134.99
    2008 - 134.99
    2007 - 134.99
    2006 - 135

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    Re: Recovering from a Referral "4"

    Those EPR averages are for the "top" 5 EPRs. I can attain that. My question is about the "bottom" 5 EPRs(because the board looks at the last 10) being a dealbreaker.
    Must be nice to have breakfest with family....Maintenance guys have got it made-BRUWIN

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    Re: Recovering from a Referral "4"

    I think you be focusing on the wrong thing, what you need to be focusing on is keeping your non-pting butt in the af ...if you was my troop, or my in dis squadron here, aint no tsgts allowed to be failing no pt ..what kind of horrible example are you bro. if i was you i'd just get out of the af now, and save myselves da there embarsasment of having a pt failures on my record....

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    Re: Recovering from a Referral "4"

    I never got to sit on a promotion board, but from all I ever heard from Chiefs and Colonels that did usually only the top 3-4 EPRs are really read. Now, as the board looks at decoration history and see something out of place (a PCS without a medal, a medal "downgrade" etc.) a board member may look at the EPRs during that period (if they are in the folder) to get an understanding of what might have happened. Now, having seen a referral 4 for PT (assuming all the other markings were far right), that board member will score accordingly. Board members cannot speak to each other during the score, the only time they talk is if there is a split score (more than 1 point difference between members). The admin support person would identify that record with a split, and then convene the board members to resolve the split. While all members can speak, only the two with the split can change their scores to be within 1 point of each other.

    During, the boards trial runs they are given 10 packages to score (from a previous year's board, with that member not meeting this board). Each package contains a unique variable, with the idea being to challenge each board member to be able to find and discern the unique thing in that package. The board members then will "norm" their scoring to set their scoring range (6-10). That is one reason why board scores vary from year to year and from AFSC to AFSC. Each AFSC meets the same board, so comparisons between the AFSCs is nothing but idle complaining and whining.

    It is possible for that referral 4 to go totally unnoticed by the board, but again if a dec is missing or "downgraded" it would tip the board to look at those EPRs. Best thing to do, max your USAFSE study effort cause that is the one factor you have total control of.

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    Re: Recovering from a Referral "4"

    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleDragger View Post
    With stellar EPRs and all boxes checked/SRE endorsed:

    Is it possible to make SMSgt within HYT if I had a Referral "4"(for a PT failure) as a TSgt at my 14 year mark? Outside of remotes/365s, I don't think I will be able to put 10 EPRs on top of that bad one.
    I believe you can do anything you put your mind to.
    "Respect My Authoritah!" - Eric Cartman

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    Re: Recovering from a Referral "4"

    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleDragger View Post
    With stellar EPRs and all boxes checked/SRE endorsed:

    Is it possible to make SMSgt within HYT if I had a Referral "4"(for a PT failure) as a TSgt at my 14 year mark? Outside of remotes/365s, I don't think I will be able to put 10 EPRs on top of that bad one.

    or to paraphrase:

    How critical are the "bottom" 5 EPRs to a board?



    When I ask these questions in person, I feel like I get the "you can do anything you put your mind to" answer. I need brutal honesty. In reality, I need to know if this obstacle is too large to overcome.
    To be brutally honest with you; I have to ask why this would even be a question in the first place? You need to keep pushing for SMSgt regardless of your past EPRs. I have seen some totally worthless MSgts who were desk jockeys their whole career make SMSgt. This last SMSgt cycle had two of the most highspeed MSgts I worked with make MSgt and one of them was totally unexpected due to no SRE the first time they were SRE eligible. This MSgt had 2 EPRs SRE since the non-SRE EPR and held a very unique primary position and just got promoted. It should have taken two more EPRs to recover from the non-SRE so there are exceptions to the "rule". You should live everyday thinking you WILL get promoted if that is your goal. Think of all of the MSgts in your careerfield that failed FA as a MSgt. They essentially you up in the pool of promotees. There are tow Chiefs in these forums who love to remond me of SMSgts and Chiefs they know of who did not have either course 14 or CCAF complete and still got promoted. I would say BS except I know of a MSgt without a CCAF who was promoted to SMSgt within the last 4 years.

    It sounds like you have all of your boxes filled but the only person who can give you a brutally honest answer is an experienced Chief who will take an in-depth look at the content of your EPRs. There are a couple of CHiefs in these forums I would recommend you send your EPRs for a review (I am not dropping their names). You may only be missing one or two of the easy "gimme" extra things the board looks for such as TOP 3 president.

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    Re: Recovering from a Referral "4"

    Quote Originally Posted by CJSmith View Post
    Stats are pretty clear who gets picked up.

    SMSgt AF averages
    2013 - 135
    2012 - 134.99
    2011 - 134.98
    2010 - 135
    2009 - 134.99
    2008 - 134.99
    2007 - 134.99
    2006 - 135
    Great starting point for the discussion!

    Quote Originally Posted by KnuckleDragger View Post
    Those EPR averages are for the "top" 5 EPRs. I can attain that. My question is about the "bottom" 5 EPRs(because the board looks at the last 10) being a dealbreaker.
    Have you played with WAPS calculator? If not, Google it, DL it and play around with the EPR score calculator portion. If you've got 9 5s, with a 4 on bottom, your score will be 134.51. 2nd from bottom, 134.02. But remember, the numbers above are the AVERAGE board score, so it is possible to sneak in without a full set of 5s, but unless they are rounding up, those average 135s do not reflect anyone getting selected without 5s. Just for illustration purposes, if 1200 people all have a score of 135 and one has a 134.51, the average is 134.9995920066611... given they show some year's averages to the hundreth, it would appear that no one got anything less, but I suspect that isn't the case and not everyone does.

    Receny matters! If you had a strong record before the 4, show you learned your lesson and have a strong record on top, I'd say there is no reason you can't make SMSgt. What you've done as a MSgt will carry much more weight than what you did as a TSgt 5-6 years ago.

    Never pass up leadership opportunities. Get out of your workcenter and LEAD your peers at the group, wing, AF, and community level. Keep plugging away at your education; you don't need to have 20 credits a year; one or two classes a year show you're making progress.

    PM me if you're interested in some more specific information that I won't post publically.

    BLOB: yes you can
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    Re: Recovering from a Referral "4"

    Quote Originally Posted by CrustySMSgt View Post
    Great starting point for the discussion!



    Have you played with WAPS calculator? If not, Google it, DL it and play around with the EPR score calculator portion. If you've got 9 5s, with a 4 on bottom, your score will be 134.51. 2nd from bottom, 134.02. But remember, the numbers above are the AVERAGE board score, so it is possible to sneak in without a full set of 5s, but unless they are rounding up, those average 135s do not reflect anyone getting selected without 5s. Just for illustration purposes, if 1200 people all have a score of 135 and one has a 134.51, the average is 134.9995920066611... given they show some year's averages to the hundreth, it would appear that no one got anything less, but I suspect that isn't the case and not everyone does.

    Receny matters! If you had a strong record before the 4, show you learned your lesson and have a strong record on top, I'd say there is no reason you can't make SMSgt. What you've done as a MSgt will carry much more weight than what you did as a TSgt 5-6 years ago.

    Never pass up leadership opportunities. Get out of your workcenter and LEAD your peers at the group, wing, AF, and community level. Keep plugging away at your education; you don't need to have 20 credits a year; one or two classes a year show you're making progress.

    PM me if you're interested in some more specific information that I won't post publically.

    BLOB: yes you can
    The same site also has a AFSC calculator if you really want to drill it down.

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    Re: Recovering from a Referral "4"

    A "referral 4"?! Christ, I remember when a 4 was actually a decent EPR, but after making SSgt, it didn't help in making rank. Remember, a 5 means you're overall perfect, or near perfect if you have a markdown or two.

    Jeez, why can't some of this be changed. You have people in the Army who can barely read and write making E8 because they are hardasses!

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