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Thread: Lackland TI scandal nets TSgt and MSgt; the tail spin continues

  1. #331
    Senior Member Smeghead's Avatar
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    Re: Lackland TI scandal nets TSgt and MSgt; the tail spin continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe Anecdote View Post
    It would have to cut down on incidents in Basic Training at the very least.

    I agree that it would do nothing about Tech School and the Air Force at large.

    At least let the trainees get started off before they have to encounter that sort of thing.

    Make sure they get some good training on how to protect themselves before they go out into the Air Force.

    Nothing is foolproof.
    Approximately 32,000 Airmen graduate each year. And how many "incidents" at basic training?

  2. #332
    Senior Member Absinthe Anecdote's Avatar
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    Re: Lackland TI scandal nets TSgt and MSgt; the tail spin continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeghead View Post
    Approximately 32,000 Airmen graduate each year. And how many "incidents" at basic training?
    I trust that you have a better handle on those stats than I do given you are a recent MTI.

    I'm not trying to sound snarky but enlighten me a little on this.

    Are you saying the problem isn't as big as it is being made out to be?

    Why do you think segregated basic is a bad idea?

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    Senior Member Shaken1976's Avatar
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    Re: Lackland TI scandal nets TSgt and MSgt; the tail spin continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunch View Post
    The first thing is that many of these sexual assaults incident don't happen at the workplace. They usually happen off duty and when alcohol is involved. Kneejerk fix? Ban military members from drinking alcohol. I can see it happening down the road.
    You are right about the drinking and hanging out socially leading to many sexual assaults. This is where you need a good wingman. Lay out your intentions clearly before heading out for the night. Know your limits. As a guy...you have to be extra careful. Don't buy so many drinks for the lady she is plastered. It is a tough situation.

    Several years ago I was at a party. This one drunk guy kept going around playing grab ass with all the females. He would attempt to grab whatever he could. Now...did all of us go report him for assault? Nope. One person smacked the shit out of him. Someone else saw what went down and got him out of there. Could this situation have been way worse? Absolutely. But as co-workers we worked together to handle the situation. The following day he apologized and all was forgiven. In the future...if he was at a party we stayed away from him...and people watched over him.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Insert clever quote here...

  4. #334
    Senior Member efmbman's Avatar
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    Re: Lackland TI scandal nets TSgt and MSgt; the tail spin continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaken1976 View Post
    Several years ago I was at a party. This one drunk guy kept going around playing grab ass with all the females. He would attempt to grab whatever he could. Now...did all of us go report him for assault? Nope. One person smacked the shit out of him. Someone else saw what went down and got him out of there. Could this situation have been way worse? Absolutely. But as co-workers we worked together to handle the situation. The following day he apologized and all was forgiven. In the future...if he was at a party we stayed away from him...and people watched over him.
    I understand what you are saying, but I am taking a different lesson from what you described. You state that you worked together to handle the situation. Yes, but only that situation. And you agree in a way because you go on to say that in the future people avoided him and watched over him. So knowing that, do you still feel the situation was handled? All that guys learned is that he does not have to be responsible because others will make the needed changes, not him.
    When things go wrong in your command, start searching for the reason in increasingly larger concentric circles around your own desk.
    -GEN Bruce C. Clarke

  5. #335
    Senior Member Smeghead's Avatar
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    Re: Lackland TI scandal nets TSgt and MSgt; the tail spin continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe Anecdote View Post
    I trust that you have a better handle on those stats than I do given you are a recent MTI.

    I'm not trying to sound snarky but enlighten me a little on this.

    Are you saying the problem isn't as big as it is being made out to be?

    Why do you think segregated basic is a bad idea?
    Who said I think segregating training is a bad idea? I always thought males pushing female flights and vice versa was a pain in the ass. I couldn't go in the dorm before reveille, couldn't do my own non duty inspections, couldn't be in there while they were showering or changing. And they knew it. Just logistically a pain.

    As to the problem, it depends what problem we're talking about. Just the Lackland "Sex Scandal!!!" then 25 MTIs have gone to court out of 500ish (never could get a straight number of how many.) Of those 25, how many were assault? Physically forcing themselves on trainees. Walker's case was nuts, both KOA and I read that crap every day shaking our heads. How many were just unprofessional relationships between two consenting adults? Do you really think trainees are these innocent, young impressionable minds that on whom those 25 MTIs used their power and influence to make them sleep with them? Men and women will hook up, we're genetically programmed that way.

    Now take into account older trainees and younger MTIs--my teamie was 22, his MTI was still in the squadron when he showed up for school. High school students have crushes on teachers, college students have crushes on professor and trainees have crushes on MTIs. Do they act them? Yes, read the news, it happens all the time.

    The instructors who fell for that shit are dumbasses--I now know way too many ex-cons. But jail time for having an unprofessional relationship? Will the same be handed out to career Airmen who bang the pipeliners at tech school?

    "But MTIs are held to a higher standard"...bull shit. That changed in 2009 with the big push to get more MTIs. I saw it in the first week of MTI school, half my class were just to feel like they had big dicks and could yell at people. If you look at the courts martial they're nearly all in that 2009 group. Hell, more than half my teamie's class were kicked out or tried. They went with the "throw enough shit at the wall and see what sticks" method.

    "Well all of us in the Air Force are held to a higher standard." Air Force BMT doesn't change the person you are. I've taken D-bags off the bus and sent D-bags out to the Air Force, only difference was they were in a uniform and could march. I've taken stellar kids off the bus, who didn't have a single problem with BMT, and left with me confident they'd be stellar Airmen. Two of them made staff first time yesterday. You are who your parents and those you grew up around molded you in to. We recruit from society, and are a microcosm of society. Look at the sexual assault statistics in the civilian world and then compare to the Air Force "epidemic."

    So yes, I do think it's being made out to be a bigger problem, and I'm anticipating the "one is too many" responses. Yes it is, so is one DUI, one hot piss test, one murder. But they all happen too, both in the civilian world and the Air Force.

  6. #336
    Member Koa1121's Avatar
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    Re: Lackland TI scandal nets TSgt and MSgt; the tail spin continues

    There is nothing wrong at all with segregating BMT. I know for a fact that it causes more problems than it's worth to have male MTI/Female flights as well as the other way around. During my years wearing the hat, and pushing flights, having a female flight was always problematic, and you ended up abusing the one or two available female MTI's in the squadron just to get many simple things done. Smeg is 100% correct in also bringing up the point that there are now several people who ex-cons, kicked out of the Air Force for having consensual relationships with adults nearly their same age, sometimes with Airmen that are older. It wasn't hard to understand the rules in place about having unprofessional relationships, but some are making out to seem like MTI's were hunting, cornering, and flat out sexually abusing little kids. When in reality, less than a handful of the cases actually involved basic trainees, and only 2 involved any forced contact. The rest involve Airmen engaging in relationships that are deemed illegal to a single sentence in a reg. While still 100% wrong, it's not something i'd even consider remotely worthy of jail time.

  7. #337
    Senior Member Shaken1976's Avatar
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    Re: Lackland TI scandal nets TSgt and MSgt; the tail spin continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Koa1121 View Post
    There is nothing wrong at all with segregating BMT. I know for a fact that it causes more problems than it's worth to have male MTI/Female flights as well as the other way around. During my years wearing the hat, and pushing flights, having a female flight was always problematic, and you ended up abusing the one or two available female MTI's in the squadron just to get many simple things done. Smeg is 100% correct in also bringing up the point that there are now several people who ex-cons, kicked out of the Air Force for having consensual relationships with adults nearly their same age, sometimes with Airmen that are older. It wasn't hard to understand the rules in place about having unprofessional relationships, but some are making out to seem like MTI's were hunting, cornering, and flat out sexually abusing little kids. When in reality, less than a handful of the cases actually involved basic trainees, and only 2 involved any forced contact. The rest involve Airmen engaging in relationships that are deemed illegal to a single sentence in a reg. While still 100% wrong, it's not something i'd even consider remotely worthy of jail time.


    I completely agree. These airman know they are in the wrong by having a relationship with a TI. They know that by reporting to a closet at a certian time what to expect. I bet more than half of these plan this out as an easy way to get through basic...bang the instructor...he won't recycle you then. Should the instructors get in some sort of trouble over this stuff??? Absolutely.. But not jail time unless it was an actual assault or rape. If it was consensual....then figure out something else. Take the hat, take a stripe, give them extra duty, or whatever. But not jail time.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Insert clever quote here...

  8. #338
    Senior Member Absinthe Anecdote's Avatar
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    Re: Lackland TI scandal nets TSgt and MSgt; the tail spin continues

    Great post @Smeghead and @Koa1121

    Thanks for answering my questions.

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