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Thread: No course 14, no CCAF = Forced retirement

  1. #21
    Junior Member Aitrus's Avatar
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    Re: No course 14, no CCAF = Forced retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Measure Man View Post
    I think the AF has made it abundantly clear that they desire for MSgts to have a CCAF and Course 14 complete...someone who chooses to not meet those expectations, is showing a little more than "just not having a degree"...they are showing that they don't really care what the AF wants.
    I think you're attributing your personal bias on the amorphous "they" of the AF. If the powers that be really wanted it that bad, they would make it mandatory, which is what this thread is about. Since they haven't done so then the MSgt is meeting the requirements for his rank. In effect, he does care about what the AF wants, and he's met the things set forth as requirements for the rank. What's the problem? He's not overachieving enough for you? I would think that the AF would "want" it's members to focus more on getting the mission done than padding their resumes or checking boxes for promotion. The guy cares, just not about the same things you care about or with the same passion. To me, that's not a good enough reason to get rid of him.

    I don't view the CCAF/Course 14 as "things for promotion" so much as "things expected of a MSgt"
    Those are things the AF expects of a MSgt who wants to promote. What about one who doesn't want to promote? The AF has said "If he don't care enough to get CCAF or Course 14 done, then his max is 24 years." It sounds to me like it's you who doesn't care about what the AF wants.

    Yes, they are "optional." But, IMO, service at 20+ yrs, a SRE, and a 5 EPR are also optional.
    The whole "20 years is optional" thing reminds me of a Star Trek The Next Generation episode. The crew encounter a race who kills off any member that reaches the age of 60 simply because they aren't considered to be useful anymore.

    Technically, any re-enlistment, leave approvals, BOPs, hardship waivers, and much more are are all "optional". If there's a long-standing precedent for letting those without those extras stay in until 24, what's wrong with them taking advantage of it?

    In my perfect world, though, CCAF/C14 wouldn't be "mandatory" to get a SRE or "mandatory" for retention 20+...but rather the "norm" while still letting commanders make exceptions.

    So, I'm straddling the fence a little on this one...I'd still like it to be the norm, but yeah, I'd like the guy you described to be allowed an exception if his commander decided it is extremely convenient for the AF to retain him.
    Then I take it that you would like to see overachievement as the new "norm"?


    I have a couple personal experiences that led me to this:

    Case 1: Back when TSgt HYT was 24...had a 22 yr TSgt eligible to reenlist. Okay guy, nothing special...a little disgruntled, on fat-boy program, etc (prior to the current PT-roid-rage)...well, I wanted the commander to deny him reenlistment and send him on his way...couldn't do it without disciplinary, etc....I thought, gee, it should be a lot easier to do that to this guy...not like we're taking away his retirement or something like if he were denied at 17 years or so...it was just time to move him on and get someone else.

    Case 2: MSgt at like 21 years, somehow picks up a line # for SMSgt. Stationed at Nellis..owns a house, etc. He also had diabetes or something where he couldn't PCS overseas, couldn't deploy, etc. AFPC would not PCS him CONUS-CONUS. Oh, and he was still in a MSgt slot as there was no SMSgt auth for his AFSC at Nellis. So, he sat there for 7 YEARS, doing a MSgt job, earning SMSgt pay, unable to deploy or PCS...until he HYT'd. Bullshit.
    Case 1: I agree that that TSgt, if was as you described, deserved to be let loose. The CC decided, for whatever reason, to let him stay. His call.

    Case 2: If the guy is a guru in his AFSC and is good, then I don't have a problem with letting him sit and mentor, pass on experience, draft AFI rewrites, whatever. Just because a guy is broke doesn't mean he should go to the trash.
    The AF obviously decided to promote the guy for some reason, it's just not clear to you. Could be "Good-ol-boy" results, maybe not. Either way, unless he was a dirt-bag, I see no reason not to keep him around. The home office needs good leaders too. I've met some awesome leaders who never deployed, or had only 1 OSW deployment to Kuwait or the like under their belt. Sandbox time does not automatically make somebody a leader, any more than being "educated" makes you smart.
    You may not be able to outrun Death, but you can sure make the Bastard work for it!
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  2. #22
    FLAPS
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    Re: No course 14, no CCAF = Forced retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by hugomk View Post
    What about MSgt that has a Bachelors Degree but not a CCAF?
    I don't personally have a problem with that, but the AF does...and that's all that matters today.

  3. #23
    FLAPS
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    Re: No course 14, no CCAF = Forced retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Aitrus View Post
    FLAPS and MM: Let's take a 20-year MSgt who's great in the trenches, mentors his troops well, deploys without any qualms, has tons of experience and savvy and is otherwise an asset to the AF. You'd be willing to get rid of him for the simple fact that he hasn't met optional enhancements to his professional development that may or may not translate into a promotion?

    IMHO, that short-sighted non-mission-enhancing sentiment is a part of what's wrong with the AF today. What's wrong with letting a great MSgt do 4 more years of shop supervision work if he's good at it? If he's gone as far as he cares to go with rank, what's the matter with letting him work his magic? Not everybody wants to be an upper-level-muckety-muck-manager neck deep in politics and red tape, and it's not like we're paying him more to do the same job he wants to do, so why not let him do it?

    Now, I can see your point if you have a lazy, profile-extending, non-deploying, bad-tempered, morale killing 9-5er spreading his ass in a basement office fiddling with numbers in Excel and making Power Points, but to paint all with a broad brush is a little extreme. Why lose good people that want to stay and are comfortable with their position and pay?
    Good points you've made, but my biggest concern is, how can a MSgt properly "mentor" anyone if they have failed to fulfill simple expectations of their grade? Just check the damn boxes (Crs 14 and CCAF) and move along!

  4. #24
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    Re: No course 14, no CCAF = Forced retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by FLAPS View Post
    I don't personally have a problem with that, but the AF does...and that's all that matters today.
    They make the rules. So everyone has to play by it.
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  5. #25
    Junior Member Aitrus's Avatar
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    Re: No course 14, no CCAF = Forced retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by DWWSWWD View Post
    People make the mistake of thinking that since you can't make SMSgt without those things done, that the first level for which it is required, is SMSgt. It's not. These 2 things are expectations of MSgts as outlined in 36-2618. You are expected to do it and foster completion of education and appropriate level of PME for subordinates. You cannot be a good supervisor by telling folks to do these things while not having done them yourself.
    Expected - not Required. There's a difference.

    I see no conflict if a supervisor who sets himself a goal of making MSgt, reaches it without CCAF or Course 14, then advises his troops to get their CCAF, etc. He's meeting his personal goals while encouraging the troops to go after theirs. Sounds to me as if that supervisor has his priorities lined up pretty well. A good supervisor looks out for the best interests of the troop. Just because I'm not an officer or hold public office doesn't mean I can't encourage my daughters to go for it if that's their goal. Does my lack of those achievements make me less of a father?

    Being a supervisor is doing paperwork. Being a leader and mentor is being inspirational. Not all good leaders lead by example. Some leaders guide because they know how the game is played, even if they've opted not to play it themselves.

    Keep in mind, CCAF isn't much, just documentation stating you completed Tech School and OJT, plus a couple of other non-essentials.
    You may not be able to outrun Death, but you can sure make the Bastard work for it!
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  6. #26
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    Re: No course 14, no CCAF = Forced retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Aitrus View Post
    I think you're attributing your personal bias on the amorphous "they" of the AF. If the powers that be really wanted it that bad, they would make it mandatory, which is what this thread is about. Since they haven't done so then the MSgt is meeting the requirements for his rank. In effect, he does care about what the AF wants, and he's met the things set forth as requirements for the rank. What's the problem? He's not overachieving enough for you? I would think that the AF would "want" it's members to focus more on getting the mission done than padding their resumes or checking boxes for promotion. The guy cares, just not about the same things you care about or with the same passion. To me, that's not a good enough reason to get rid of him.

    Those are things the AF expects of a MSgt who wants to promote. What about one who doesn't want to promote? The AF has said "If he don't care enough to get CCAF or Course 14 done, then his max is 24 years." It sounds to me like it's you who doesn't care about what the AF wants.
    As I said, I think the AF has made it abudantly clear that it wants/expects MSgts to complete the Course 14 and have a CCAF.

    The whole "20 years is optional" thing reminds me of a Star Trek The Next Generation episode. The crew encounter a race who kills off any member that reaches the age of 60 simply because they aren't considered to be useful anymore.

    Technically, any re-enlistment, leave approvals, BOPs, hardship waivers, and much more are are all "optional". If there's a long-standing precedent for letting those without those extras stay in until 24, what's wrong with them taking advantage of it?
    Yes, they are are all "optional"...I'll say there is a certain standard for letting a guy reenlist the first time...and the second time, etc. After 16 years or so, denying him is appealable to the SECAF, right? So, it is a lot easier to deny a first termer reenlistment than it is a 16 year guy...all I'm saying is it should be even easier to deny a 20+ guy that a first termer.

    Then I take it that you would like to see overachievement as the new "norm"?
    I don't consider getting a CCAF/ C14 as overachievement....but yes, I think overachievement should be the norm in people over 20.

    Case 1: I agree that that TSgt, if was as you described, deserved to be let loose. The CC decided, for whatever reason, to let him stay. His call.
    Well, yeah, basically he applied the same "reenlistment" standard as he would to any other career Airman....my personal opinion is that the standard at 20+ should be a lot lot higher.

    Case 2: If the guy is a guru in his AFSC and is good, then I don't have a problem with letting him sit and mentor, pass on experience, draft AFI rewrites, whatever. Just because a guy is broke doesn't mean he should go to the trash.
    The AF obviously decided to promote the guy for some reason, it's just not clear to you. Could be "Good-ol-boy" results, maybe not. Either way, unless he was a dirt-bag, I see no reason not to keep him around. The home office needs good leaders too. I've met some awesome leaders who never deployed, or had only 1 OSW deployment to Kuwait or the like under their belt. Sandbox time does not automatically make somebody a leader, any more than being "educated" makes you smart.
    Not saying the guy has to deploy to be a good leader...but he should be ABLE to deploy. I know many great leaders that haven't deployed, but they are ready, willing and able.

  7. #27
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    Re: No course 14, no CCAF = Forced retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Aitrus View Post
    I see no conflict if a supervisor who sets himself a goal of making MSgt, reaches it without CCAF or Course 14, then advises his troops to get their CCAF, etc. He's meeting his personal goals while encouraging the troops to go after theirs. Sounds to me as if that supervisor has his priorities lined up pretty well.
    Yup...."Do as I say, not as I do" is always a good trait for a supervisor :doh

    Quote Originally Posted by Aitrus View Post
    Keep in mind, CCAF isn't much, just documentation stating you completed Tech School and OJT, plus a couple of other non-essentials.
    So, since it that damn easy (which it really is) why are you arguing it?

  8. #28
    Tak
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    Re: No course 14, no CCAF = Forced retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by FLAPS View Post
    First of all, I was a TSgt, so I think that makes me somewhat qualified to speak on their behalf. Second, my job as an officer is to understand enlisted professional development. To your credit though, I should have been clear on WHAT TYPE of TSgt can knock out their Crs 14. Either way, my statement was correct..."taken care of as a TSgt."
    Spoken like a true officer...I guess you just needed to recalibrate your answer...after
    All you were a tsgt like 15 years ago and things don't change...

    BTW, course 14 is so important, it is not legal to mention it on the epr.

    I bet your masters was encouraged, did you get it and if not you should have
    Been put out at 20 right...course 14 and CCAF is not a measure of squat. The
    Fact that leaders think it is, shows their disconnect...this reminds me of someone
    With a great uniform or mess dress, and people think they are superstars. No more
    Than a basketball jersey and shoes makes you a great bball player.

  9. #29
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    Re: No course 14, no CCAF = Forced retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Aitrus View Post
    Keep in mind, CCAF isn't much, just documentation stating you completed Tech School and OJT, plus a couple of other non-essentials.
    So, what might this little piece of information tell us about someone who hasn't gotten one in 20 years?

  10. #30
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    Re: No course 14, no CCAF = Forced retirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Tak View Post
    BTW, course 14 is so important, it is not legal to mention it on the epr.
    ...because it is on the DVR.

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